Hishtadlus vs. Bitachon

healthymama

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 9:46 pm

Quote:

I don't understand the purpose of testing now. What options? For secular people the option is to test the fetus and if it has the disease to abort (which even non jews can't do). Are there any other options?

Rabbi Eliezar Yehuda Waldenberg allows first trimester abortion of a fetus that would be born with a deformity that would cause it to suffer, and termination of a fetus with a lethal fetal defect such as Tay Sachs up to the seventh month of gestation.

MOM222

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 9:48 pm

Motek wrote:

I think you mean 1981:

Quote:

Dor Yeshorim was started in the 1980s by Rabbi Joseph Ekstein, who lost four children to Tay-Sachs disease between 1965 and 1983. In a 2006 interview, Ekstein revealed that while of his first five children four died of Tay-Sachs disease, none of the ones born subsequent to his founding of Dor Yeshorim suffered the condition.

He actually had one child born with Tay-Sachs and the rest heathy after founding Dor Yeshorim.

Last edited by MOM222 on Wed, Sep 27 2006, 11:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

Ruchel

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 5:48 am

Quote:

What?! Done by whom? What doctor asks you if you're an Ashkenazi? You get tested if you choose to get tested.

I agree. I had even never heard of testing before going to American sites. I got tested before my marriage, because here it is mandatory, but they only checked diseases, blood, rhesus... They didn't ask if we were Jewish, although I think our doctor knows, and the person doing the blood test was an Ashkenazic Jew. I managed to escape the gynecologic test because I was too terrified - I have heard that some women require their future husband to do a test to see if he can "do it" when they wait until marriage, I was shocked!

shalhevet

Sat, Sep 16 2006, 7:32 pm

Motek wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

Now take 1000 people again. How many will, ch"v, die young in today's world? ...

Same with Dor Yesharim.

How is it the same? The incidence of Tay-sachs carriers among Ashkenazim is quite high - It is estimated that approximately 1 in 25 Ashkenazi Jews are carriers of Tay-Sachs disease.

But the chance of a baby being born to non-tested parents is 1/25 * 1/25 * 1/4 = 1:2500

Quote:

Another point is that brocho is only found on what is hidden. If someone has a problem and doesn't find out it is much 'easier' for Hashem to perform a miracle since Hashem, so to speak, doesn't "like" changing nature.

What are you referring to - finding out, when single, that one is a carrier? That's not a problem at all[/quote]! You just don't marry another carrier.[/quote]

It might not be

Quote:

That's not a problem at all

if they have already met and are interested in each other (not how Dor Yesharim recommends doing things, but many people do)

shalhevet

Sat, Sep 16 2006, 7:46 pm

Basically the amount that someone can rely on bitachon and not do hishtadlus depends on how much bitachon he has.

Hashem does not "like" to do open miracles, but created the world with the "laws of nature" which is how Hashem wants to run His world.

If a person thinks that it is possible for something to happen he includes it in his personal laws of nature. If someone thinks that something is a miraculous occurence he turns it into a miracle.

For example:
Someone decides to learn and not work. If he truly believes that Hashem provides parnassa he has created a situation in which he can live like that. Hashem will find him ways of sending him parnassa.
An extreme example is a simple man in the time of the Arizal in Tzefat who heard a shiur (I can't remember if it was from the Ari or one of the other Gedolim living in Tzefat at the time) that a person can learn and not work. He sold his horse (donkey?) and cart and sat down to learn. After a few days the donkey came back with a cart laden with money, which had belonged to the Arab owner who died.
If someone thinks he has to work 12 hours a day to make a living, that's what will happen to him.

Motek, about the other story about the elections.
There are people who go to a rav and tell him what they have already decided. A wise rav will just give someone like that a brocho, because they are not going to listen anyway. Or the better of the two options eg someone asks if they should live in London or New York - a rov is not going to tell them to live in Yerushalayim.

mali

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 4:31 am

What about: אין סומכין על הנס? Since Hashem runs this world according to rules of nature, He wants us to act accordingly.

Let me strengthen this question: Believing in the coming of Moshiach any given day is one of the thirteen priniciples of faith. Now, can I say "Moshiach is coming anyway, I don't have to bother"?

As far as the Rav with elections: Why can't he just say they should do what they want? Why does he have to agree with what they're doing?

And lastly (maybe I should start another thread?): If all the Tana'im had a job besides for learning, and there are countless places in the Mishna and Talmud that encourage one to work, WHY do people nowadays think they're better if they only learn? It's something I fail to understand.

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 8:31 am

mali wrote:

What about: אין סומכין על הנס? Since Hashem runs this world according to rules of nature, He wants us to act accordingly.

Bitochon is not relying on miracles. The person who relies on Hashem for something feels that is part of the rules of nature, as I explained above.

Quote:

Let me strengthen this question: Believing in the coming of Moshiach any given day is one of the thirteen priniciples of faith. Now, can I say "Moshiach is coming anyway, I don't have to bother"?

You don't have to bother with what? With doing mitzvos? We do that because Hashem told us to, not to bring moshiach.

Quote:

As far as the Rav with elections: Why can't he just say they should do what they want? Why does he have to agree with what they're doing?

Because they think they've come to ask the rav. If he says do what you want they'll answer "No, we want to know da'as Torah!" But the rav knows from the way the question is worded that they've basically decided. Like the first example about the guy investing money foolishly. If the rav would have said - don't, he would have started arguing with him what a wonderful opportunity etc and wouldn't have left him alone until the rav would have said he should do it. I can tell you that without knowing the people involved. So why should he waste his time?

Quote:

And lastly (maybe I should start another thread?): If all the Tana'im had a job besides for learning, and there are countless places in the Mishna and Talmud that encourage one to work, WHY do people nowadays think they're better if they only learn? It's something I fail to understand.

The conditions today (and for many generations previously) do not allow a person to grow enough in Torah if they also work. The Rambam sat for many years and just learned while his brother supported him. It was only later when his brother drowned and the Rambam had to support both families that he became a doctor. He writes at the end of Hilchos Shemita V'yovlos that today anyone can choose to just learn, like the Levi'im did.

Most Rabbonim in Europe for centuries learned almost all the time and their responsibility to their communities was to answer halachic questions.
The best learners would live with their in-laws for many years and be supported by them while they learned.

The opinion of R Shimon bar Yochai is that someone should only learn and a person can also follow this opinion.

shoy18

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 10:55 am

mummyof6 wrote:

Basically the amount that someone can rely on bitachon and not do hishtadlus depends on how much bitachon he has.

Someone decides to learn and not work. If he truly believes that Hashem provides parnassa he has created a situation in which he can live like that. .

I here what you say mummy, however, someone mentioned before those mailings of a poor family who's husband is ill, and he has X amount of children, are you saying he didnt have enough bitachon in hashem and therefore really needed to put more hishtadlus into his life? Your reasoning is all fine and dandy if it works out, but in many cases it doesnt.

You mentioned your little miracles, of sheitals and strollers, are you saying because you are on a higher lever of bitachon you recieved them, people who are poor and ill rely on miracles for health and parnassa, not sheitals and strollers, and yet they dont have them, nor do they have life insurance or medical coverage, how do you explain that

In another thread we discussed life insurance, why on earth would any healthy provider of the family not get it, and why would a rav say no to it, hashem puts things into this world for a reason, life insurance, medical insurance, parnassa, its all part of the equation, otherwise it wouldnt be here. Hashem say to find yourself a rav, he also meant a comptent rav!!!

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 11:12 am

We are talking about how much hishtadlus a person has to do to get what they would have gotten anyway.

There are things that people won't get even if they do all the hishtadlus in the world because in Shamayim it was decided that they shouldn't have it. (Why is a different thread)

Eg the question is if X, who is ch"v sick, will recover. Let's say it has been decided he will. Now the question is how much hishtadlus he needs to do. If he is on a very high level MAYBE it will be enough for him to daven, or take some simple treatment. If he is on a lower level and rushes off to the top specialist (I am not trying to say that most people shouldn't do so) then that will be the hishtadlus he needs in order to get well.
But what about Y, who it has been decreed to be sick, ch"v and not recover? He can daven all day and visit top specialists and nothing will help.

The thing is we never know what has been decided about who.

Quote:

In another thread we discussed life insurance, why on earth would any healthy provider of the family not get it, and why would a rav say no to it, hashem puts things into this world for a reason, life insurance, medical insurance, parnassa, its all part of the equation, otherwise it wouldnt be here. Hashem say to find yourself a rav, he also meant a comptent rav!!!

Because different rabbonim hold differently about how much hishtadlus a person should do. Some are certainly very in favour of life insurance and some are not. And I am surprised that you decide who is a competent rav according to whether you agree with his psak.

shoy18

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 11:43 am

I agree that hashem makes things happen no matter what, but what you seem to be saying is that if you have enough bitachon then you are harmless and you dont need to do your hishtadlus in life and provde for you family and protect yourself and your children in case you are no longer able to do so. Life insurance is something you need to live, if you have a large family (it may sound a bit weird but nonetheless true)

What I meant about my last remark, which I should have explained better, you have to find yourself a rav who understands not only halacha, hashkafa... but knows your familys place in life and is knowedgable in everything you need in life. You are suppose to pick a rav, it doesnt say to have a hundred different ones bec not everyone knows everything about everythign, so make sure he understands you.

busymom

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 1:21 pm

I'm sorry for having brought this unrelated issue into this thread, but I do want to respond to this:

mummyof6 wrote:

Quote:

As far as the Rav with elections: Why can't he just say they should do what they want? Why does he have to agree with what they're doing?

Thanks for making this point much clearer than I did. I was raised in a family that DID consult Rebbes for every major decision and had great faith in them, so I respect asking such questions in general. I just get frustrated when I see ppl "use" their Rebbe/Rav as in the above story, which brings me back to my original point: their rebbe becomes the person on whom to "blame" their personal choices - it's simply an easy way out. (if the investment or elected official doesn't work out as hoped, one can take a holy stance and say, "I don't know. I just did what the Rav/Rebbe said...")
I want to add that, like Motek, I don't know why these Rebbeim play along with the games of such ppl. Perhaps they have their reasons. But my frustration is certainly not aimed at the spiritual mentors, but the followers who abuse their leader's position.

busymom

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 1:41 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

I once read (R' Akiva Tatz? - Worldmask?) a beautiful explanation about this. I will try my best to present it here.
Hashem created the world with the laws of nature because this allows a person to CHOOSE whether to believe in Him or not. If everything would be an open miracle, NOT believing in Hashem wouldn't even be an option, so this would take away bechirah. The laws of nature allow Hashem to "hide" giving humans the choice of emunah.
However, a person who is a true tzaddik will recognize - and REALLY believe - that for Hashem making rain and splitting the sea is one and the same. One isn't "easier" or "harder" than the other. For such a saintly person, Hashem's "mask" has already been stripped away - the laws of nature ARE NO LONGER NECESSARY. Therefore, such a holy person TRULY believes that it's an equal miracle for vinegar to burn as it is for oil to burn (as the story related in Gemara) and he can merit such a "miracle," which to him is the same as "nature."

mali

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 5:31 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Bitochon is not relying on miracles. The person who relies on Hashem for something feels that is part of the rules of nature, as I explained above.

Why isn't relying on Hashem for Parnassa without working at all, not relying on a miracle? I know way too many people who go around collecting money. So they're beyond the point of Bitachon, and once they catch themselves, it's too late to find a job, so the end up relying on other people's generosity. The stories you told here, albeit nice and true, happened to very few worthy individuals in history.

Quote:

mali wrote:

Let me strengthen this question: Believing in the coming of Moshiach any given day is one of the thirteen priniciples of faith. Now, can I say "Moshiach is coming anyway, I don't have to bother"?

You don't have to bother with what? With doing mitzvos? We do that because Hashem told us to, not to bring moshiach.

Let's take a very small hypothetical situation: What would you tell a person who doesn't get his cavities filled, because "Moshiach is coming, so why bother?" Question

Quote:

The Rambam knew when it was time to go out and work. What about hundreds (thousands?) in our generation who rely on thin air, but refuse to get a job?

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The best learners would live with their in-laws for many years and be supported by them while they learned.

That's true, but with the Torah industry today, Boruch Hashem, you don't have enough wealthy in-laws to support all the full-time learners. Why can't these people get a part-time job??

Motek

Tue, Sep 19 2006, 5:17 pm

JRKmommy - I didn't give a thought about your age, sorry Wink

. I was responding to the point about "mass screenings". I am quite surprised to hear that they were offered in Canada ten years before Dor Yesharim came into existence. Whose initiative was it?

mali - "Now, can I say "Moshiach is coming anyway, I don't have to bother"?" Come on mali, you know that the Rebbe urged people to build etc. while simultaneously inculcating a yearning and demand for Moshiach now!

as for: What would you tell a person who doesn't get his cavities filled, because "Moshiach is coming, so why bother?" - I don't understand the question. What does Moshiach's coming have to do with not filling cavities? There is no source that says that when Moshiach comes cavities will be miraculous filled! Olam k'minhago noheg!

mummyof6 - re "We do that because Hashem told us to, not to bring moshiach." - there's a thread on that and yet this is the third time you're repeating this error despite the fact that the Chofetz Chaim says otherwise.

mali

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 1:43 am

Motek wrote:

mali - "Now, can I say "Moshiach is coming anyway, I don't have to bother"?" Come on mali, you know that the Rebbe urged people to build etc. while simultaneously inculcating a yearning and demand for Moshiach now!

as for: What would you tell a person who doesn't get his cavities filled, because "Moshiach is coming, so why bother?" - I don't understand the question. What does Moshiach's coming have to do with not filling cavities? There is no source that says that when Moshiach comes cavities will be miraculous filled! Olam k'minhago noheg!

That was my point! That we are in a world that demands Hishtadlus.
I don't see much of a difference between someone who doesn't get tested for Dor Yesharim because there's such a slight chance of having a sick child, and someone who doesn't get his teeth fixed because Moshiach will solve that problem. They're both living in some kind of denial.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 20 2006, 1:57 am

The difference is that fixing your teeth is dealing with a situation which already exists. B'derech Hateva (the rules of nature) the cavity is not going to go away by itself (unless for someone with incredibly strong bitachon as I've explained before, or maybe he wouldn't get a cavity in the first place).

B'derech Hateva 2449 babies out of every 2500 born to Ashkenazi couples will not have Tay Sachs so even if a couple was unknowingly both carriers it is not a 'miracle' that their baby is born healthy. (Of course every baby is a miracle Very Happy

, but I'm talking about outside the laws of nature.)

Motek wrote:

Quote:

What does Moshiach's coming have to do with not filling cavities? There is no source that says that when Moshiach comes cavities will be miraculous filled! Olam k'minhago noheg!

I think I heard that when Moshiach comes everyone will be cured from their illnesses/ disabilities just like at Har Sinai.