Those who have gone OTD and came back, what brought you back

mummiedearest

Fri, May 13 2011, 4:42 pm

shanie5 wrote:

I think that reading these stories can help us when we have s/o in our lives that is OTD or heading that way. For instance, those who shared about being accepted teaches us that we should accept others unconditionally-as we may never know what kind of hashpa'a we have on them by our actions.

Keep 'em coming please!

that's lovely. we should all treat people with acceptance anyway. basic good middos are important. my point is not that hearing the stories is bad. my point is that we can't ask for them. there are many speakers/authors who choose to share their stories without invitation. at some point, however, people consider it ok to ask. I know one woman who was approached to speak at a function because she is a geyores. she was INCREDIBLY upset by it. she had never indicated a willingness to share, and I'm sure she doesn't advertise her past.

I once dated someone who asked me why my parents became frum. I told him I didn't know. he was surprised, asked why. I said because they never shared with me, and it's none of my beeswax. his answer: but you're their daughter!

fast forward, I come home from date. parents want to know how it went. I told them that he asked why they were frum. my mom said, "and what did you say?" I told them. they were surprised they never told me and sat down to tell me on the spot. it was painful for them, and I still kinda regret mentioning the whole conversation. even as a daughter, I had no business asking.

again, if op is in a situation and needs advice, I sincerely hope she gets the advice she needs. if she has no purpose to this, I'd say there are better ways to find entertainment.

and to whoever said I'm nitpicking, I'm discussing a halacha here. granted, it's not a widely taught halacha, but it's there. halacha can be nitpicky if it wants. you still have to respect it.

chani8

Sun, Sep 25 2011, 3:19 pm

This was such a nice thread and I am sorry to see it got shut down for no good reason. It certainly is not onas devarim to ask people to share. It is a nice thing to do, a chance to give people the platform to tell their story. No one has to tell their story and if the subject bothers them, then they don't have to read it. On the preface of loshen hara, you could end up shutting this whole site down and what would you accomplish? A lot of people with no place to go to share, connect, communicate, grow, love and learn from one another. It was not ok to attack the O. It was not nice and not fair, and you were wrong.

amother

Sun, Sep 25 2011, 5:14 pm

As a mother of an OTD child, I was actually getting a HUGE amount of chizuk reading about people who have been there and made the way back.
Most days I feel like I have a huge gaping wound in my stomach, bleeding with pain for my DD.
I have actually become physically sick over this - in my digestive tracts, unsurprisingly.

I am aware of the importance of maintaining a loving relationship despite all the pain, and I have gone to superhuman lengths to be a loving mother in the face of so much rebelliousness. Even though she acknowledges this and thanks me, and says she loves me, it is quite obvious that she is a tormented soul and I pray for her constantly from the depths of my being.

It gives me so much comfort to think that there is hope, and it provides a lot of encouragement to read what I can still do that might make a difference.

PLEASE do not end this thread. I would greatly appreciate reading of more people's experiences.

freidasima

Sun, Sep 25 2011, 6:55 pm

What happened here, in spite of mummiedearest's pure intentions, is to me a good an example of what happens when a person has very good and kosher intentions but takes halocho far beyond its bounds.

The din is very specific. One can not make a remark to a person that reminds them about their sinful past.
That's all. The remark can be a question, it can be a statement, it can be a conjecture, and it can be a joke.

BUT. It has to be made to a specific person, not "thrown out into the air" as a general question. and it can't be anonymous, meaning it can't be to an anonymous person or from an anonymous person.

Unless one personally knows someone on this board and the question is directed specifically to them, there is absolutely no issur in what the OP did. Just the opposite. As all the former OTD mothers seem to have answered anonymously, of their own free will, and the OP's question was just a catalyst it is no different than a magazine ad that goes "if you were OTD and returned you want to share your story with us we will be happy to listen" for which there is no issur and such ads have appeared in publications such as "the Jewish Observer" by rabbonim working on the topic of kiruv.

To use this thread as a reminder of the halocho - one can not do this face to face with a specific person - is fine. But it is a general reminder, and not a reason to make the OP feel bad, to make any of the responders feel bad, or to say that this thread is no good. Just the opposite. It just definitely IS a feelgood thread and I see that as wonderful in these difficult days for everyone at the end of Elul.

There is being careful when in comes to halocho but there is also turning everything into an issur when it is not. No one here posted names, including names of Rabbonim, it was all done carefully, respectfully but also with a lot of important feeling and I know that I learned important things from it.

ruth

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 1:08 pm

mummiedearest, I sort of get your trepidation about how this discussion might cause someone to believe they can ask this question of someone IRL. But the whole point here is annonymity so that a conversation or question that we feel uncomfortable about (in this case, unable to ask) can ask. There are many,many discussions on imamother that an ignorant or misguided person could make errors in applying to their lives.

However, I do think it is responsible that you point out that someone should not ask this of someone IRL. It is similar to when ppl ask questions of gerim. There are gerim who have published their story. The people on this thread have voluntarilly shared and the asker, asked the question with the awareness this is a annonymous venue.

I found the thread helpful for understanding that non-judgmentalism and acceptance is what someone needs to be helped back. I am going to get a cd of 8th day too!

mummiedearest

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 1:31 pm

ruth wrote:

lol. wow, this is an old thread. just to clarify, I pmed yael at some point asking her to get a psak on this. I feel it is her site and she decides what is and is not appropriate. my concern here really is that people often ask these questions in real life. you may say it's ok to ask on the internet in an anonymous fashion, but this is a question many people do not realize is problematic. anonymous forums have some great advantages. if someone asks a personal question in the intimacy forum, no one will assume that it's ok to ask that question of a friend/acquaintance as a rule. this particular topic is problematic in that many people really think that it is perfectly fine to ask about someone's past. and as listening to/reading inspirational stories about people's return to judaism seems to have become the favorite form of entertainment in the frum world, I think it is important that these discussions come with some fine print, if nothing else.

again, there are those who are fine with sharing, and good for them. just be aware that not everybody wants to share their personal stories, and that is their right. privacy should be respected.

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 2:45 pm

chani8 wrote:

It's a question directed at the general public, whoever wants to reply can, and do so anonymously.

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2012, 12:43 pm

I left the chasidish world because it seemed so superficial and so hypocritical to me. I hated that although I was smarter than a lot of the boys/men in my family, I was considered less of a person - like my thoughts on learning didn't count and I should just learn to make kugel. I felt insulted that all I'm supposed to be aware of is what S&W has on sale, which diapers are better, and whether I have a bugaboo.

I felt so resentful that the denier of my beige tights mattered so much, we were always taught that the hellfire and brimstone version of chumras, but I was never taught the beauty and logic behind halacha, or the difference between halacha and chumra.

To me, when I left it didn't matter more that I stopped wearing tights or that I ate pork and was mechallel shabbos - they were all equivalent. I figured that if I could eat McDonalds on the sly (behind closed doors) as long as I looked "chasidish" then it wouldn't matter - and everyone accepted me.

I got tired of the duplicity and just let it all go publicly.

I came back because in finding my identity - through extensive mistakes, hardships and pain, I learned to separate Hashem and my relationship with him, from people. I learned to deferentiate between Jews and Judaism.

I learned that when I had nobody else to help me dig out of a mess or 10, Hashem came through for me. Each time.

I learned that Hashem wasn't there with a stick to punish me everytime I did something wrong, but that he was there to love me and hold me tight and support me and for me to be close to him.

I learned that "gedolim" are just people and the only God in the world is Hashem. It is becasue I had to pull myself up by the bootstraps with just myself and Hashem's help, that I slowly came back.

However, I did find my place, after lots of searching and learning and I found that being 100% shomer Halacha from a MO perspective is the way for me.

My family still doesn't accept me 100% and I know a lot of acquaintences (they can't be called friends anymore) from the chasidish world look down on me with lots of disdain and contempt. That's OK. Because there is not one person in this world that I need to give a din vecheshbon to, regarding my bein adom lamokom.

I can honestly say that now, I only answer to Hashem. I don't care what people say or think about me, my path or my life. As long as I'm doing right, I sleep well.

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2012, 12:43 pm

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2012, 1:57 pm

I've never been OTD - but I so often had such thoughts...

The reason it never materialized into anything more than thoughts - is because of my grandparents. Every time these doubts creep up - I think of them.

They were completely secular actually, they grew up without any exposure to Judaism in USSR.
But they inherited from their family true Jewish values. They prided themselves on being Jews, they were such warm people, with so much love for every Jew in them, so much derech eretz, so much Yiras Shamaim.

The Judaism around me is often very far from the values they exemplified.

Every time I thought what's so beautiful about this religion, I am embarrassed to be part of this community - I would think of my grandparents and remind myself that what I see around me is not true Jewish values. These people are no reflection of Torah - I have mesorah from my grandparents, and I trust it more than I trust any BY teacher, or "Gadol Hador"

And being that I know what Jewish values are - I better stay on board, and be a good example.

Isher

Mon, Jul 16 2012, 3:13 pm

amother wrote:

I left the chasidish world because it seemed so superficial and so hypocritical to me. I hated that although I was smarter than a lot of the boys/men in my family, I was considered less of a person - like my thoughts on learning didn't count and I should just learn to make kugel. I felt insulted that all I'm supposed to be aware of is what S&W has on sale, which diapers are better, and whether I have a bugaboo.

I felt so resentful that the denier of my beige tights mattered so much, we were always taught that the hellfire and brimstone version of chumras, but I was never taught the beauty and logic behind halacha, or the difference between halacha and chumra.
To me, when I left it didn't matter more that I stopped wearing tights or that I ate pork and was mechallel shabbos - they were all equivalent. I figured that if I could eat McDonalds on the sly (behind closed doors) as long as I looked "chasidish" then it wouldn't matter - and everyone accepted me.

I got tired of the duplicity and just let it all go publicly.

I came back because in finding my identity - through extensive mistakes, hardships and pain, I learned to separate Hashem and my relationship with him, from people. I learned to deferentiate between Jews and Judaism.

I learned that when I had nobody else to help me dig out of a mess or 10, Hashem came through for me. Each time.

I learned that Hashem wasn't there with a stick to punish me everytime I did something wrong, but that he was there to love me and hold me tight and support me and for me to be close to him.

I learned that "gedolim" are just people and the only God in the world is Hashem. It is becasue I had to pull myself up by the bootstraps with just myself and Hashem's help, that I slowly came back.

However, I did find my place, after lots of searching and learning and I found that being 100% shomer Halacha from a MO perspective is the way for me.

My family still doesn't accept me 100% and I know a lot of acquaintences (they can't be called friends anymore) from the chasidish world look down on me with lots of disdain and contempt. That's OK. Because there is not one person in this world that I need to give a din vecheshbon to, regarding my bein adom lamokom.

I can honestly say that now, I only answer to Hashem. I don't care what people say or think about me, my path or my life. As long as I'm doing right, I sleep well.

That is exactly my dh's thoughts on the issue. He feels that a lot of people that go otd, do so because they don't understand the beauty of yiddishkeit. They just see the restrictions and have the pressure to fit into the society that they are being brought up in.

This thread is actually amazing (even if it's an old and revived one) as it gives us some insight of how some small actions on our part can help someone otd return to yiddishkeit. I agree that readers need to realize that such a question can't be asked in real life, but as anon posting I think it's great.

amother

Wed, Jul 25 2012, 1:10 pm

I know this thread is old, but since it came up again recently, I just wanted to add a few things.

On mummiedearests point. I agree we cant underestimate the hurt we can cause. I probably fit this category (although I never really thought of it that way, maybe even till this post!? I just think of it as a rebellious phase- and I remember thinking at points during it-that I KNEW it was a phase?! As wierd as that sounds.)

I remember YEARS after a school trip where I had gotten in a lot of trouble...a madricha from that trip bumped into me, and was suprised where I was at, she said something like, 'dont worry, we all make mistakes' ...

I cant tell you how upset that comment made me, I literally cried. I would have prefered she said nothing.

Saying that- I didnt actually have a problem with this thread. You cant ask in real life...(seriously dont ask!) but on an anon basis it can help other people and give people an insight.

What helped me was a few things:
Meeting baalai teshuva.
Moving geographically away from bad influences.
And working through issues like difficulties I had in kriah etc. I didnt even realize the contribution this played in my desicions- but when I started getting back into things, it became painfully obvious that the behaviour I displayed in school towards yiddishkiet had a direct link with my ability in kriah and general jewish knowledge.
I dont think this is uncommon- I would imagine even more so in boys.

Baruch Hashem I am so far from this period in my life that I rarely think of it anymore but in some ways I should keep it in mind for my own children and I am happy I can share this with others.