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Tuition Dilemma
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amother


 

Post Sun, May 22 2011, 10:14 pm
Just wondering what the "oilam" thinks. We live on a very limited income. No frills, small house, old cars, hand-me-down clothes, no meat during the week, etc. etc. All who know us agree that we are very appropriate and live a very simple lifestyle. Through a lot of scrimping, we have managed to put about $50,000 away in retirement and savings accounts. This is THE only source of savings we have which will need to cover bar mitzvahs, seminaries, weddings, plus our retirement. Our current income does not cover all our tuition requirements. We asked a Rav whether we are required to use our savings to pay tuition and he said "absolutely not." He said that in today's day and age, everyone needs to plan for the future and we should not be expected to use our savings for tuition. We'll see if the tuition committee agrees :-)
But......and here's my question: We have a very special milestone coming up soon and we really really want to take a trip to Eretz Yisrael with our family. We would have some family support and would end up having to pay about $5000 of our own money. Is this wrong, to spend $5000 on a trip yet be getting a tuition reduction? (one of the questions on the tuition reduction application is what is your average cost of family vacations? we usually go on 1 vacation in the summer. it's one night at a hotel and a few nearby activities for a total cost of $400-$500.)
Thoughts???? TIA.
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cip




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 22 2011, 11:30 pm
be honest with the tuition board. tell them what you told us on your tuition form.
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shirachadasha




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 22 2011, 11:33 pm
I really admire your honesty with yourself (even before you get to the tuition board).
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 22 2011, 11:38 pm
Ask yourself this:

Would you call a tzedaka organization and ask for the $5,000?

IMO, if you have $5,000 to spare it should go to the school.
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Depressed




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 1:25 am
This isnt Daas Torah, obviously; just my vibisheh thoughts and haskofos.

Halachically you may get a heter. But, there is still a chyuv min hatorah on your husband to teach your sons the whole Torah. We rely on the gamarra in baba basra that rav gamla set up schools and yeshivos for orphans first and then later for fathers who was busy earning a living and couldnt spend all their time teaching their children.

So the rebbe is the shaliach of your husband to teach torah. The Vilna Gaon writes that the more one sacrifices for his son's learning the more nachas and torah he will see from his children and grandchildren . You want to give that all away for a trip to Israel, IMVHO thats rather silly....
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 2:35 am
It would be wrong to spend $5000 ANNUALLY on a trip. On the assumption that you would need the tuition assistance in other years (the ones where you only spend $500) then I don't see a problem. But yes, be honest with them.
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shoshina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 7:27 am
OP, I also admire the honesty of your reflections.

Put yourself in the position of the parents who are subsidizing your children's education, though. To pay full tuition (which includes subsidizing yours) they have probably given up a lot of opportunities to spend $5000. Imagine: a friend told you she is really struggling right now, they can't afford shoes for the kids. So you buy your friends kids a pair of shoes. Then she tells you she's taking a $5000 trip to E'Y

What do you think?
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costanza




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 8:10 am
I don't think this is so cut and dry at all.
The context of the community and the specific school play a part.
Let me first say, that you seem very sincere and not the type of people to scam the system. I don't think it is so terrible to take a vacation like this once in a while. You're entitled.
I would also say that in some school systems the subsidy process allows for vacations in your annual budget. And if your school is anything like mine, where very wealthy people run the Board of Directors and approve school budgets that allow for administrators to travel to Israel and other things that go on that are indulgent, then you should be allowed to also.
Like you, I deny myself many things in order to pay tuition. And I don't know how long you have been in the system, but ,speaking for myself, after 12 or so years of paying in and subsidizing others by paying in full, you begin to develop resentment. If a trip that is for a special occasion needs to happen once every 5 or 6 or 12 years and it will alleviate that resentment, then go for it.
And there is something very wrong if people are choosing paying tuition over buying needed shoes. This whole system needs to break - it's a disaster.
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shoshina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 9:17 am
Costanza, what does it mean by "you're entitled" to take a vacation once in awhile and still have someone else pay for your tuition? Is everyone entitled to vacation? Genuinely curious about the logic here...
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 9:31 am
Well, I don't think that one should have to sit in the dark and wear clothes rejected by Goodwill in order to qualify for tuition assistance. OTOH, it does irk me that I *know* people are taking expensive trips to Israel or other expensive vacations while I'm supporting their tuition.

We don't know the full circumstance. Is this Granny's 100th birthday, and you're taking all the kids to see her and, since you're already paying airfare, staying to tour for a while? Or is it your 2nd cousin once removed's wedding. Big difference.

In any case, you need to ask yourself the following: if the tuition committee's response is that if you take that $5000 vacation, you will not receive tuition assistance or (as I would do if I were on the committee, and this was not a situation like Granny), give you a reasonable vacation allowance of up to say $1000, then reduce tuition assistance by the rest, so you'd need to come up with another $4000, could you do it.
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Liba




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 9:36 am
With all of the schools closing in the US because people aren't paying tuition I would check carefully into the financial stability of your particular school before asking for or accepting a scholarship you don't 100% need. Is the school paying the teachers in full and paying them on time? Are they taking out loans to do so, loans they may not be able to pay back or do they have endowments for scholarships and the ability to grant them without putting the school into trouble long term?

Taking tzedakah (and scholarships are tzedakah out of the pockets of all of the parents paying full tuition) while taking a vacation that many can only dream of is something to consider seriously. Did you ask the rav about taking the vacation while getting scholarships, or just about long term savings while asking for scholarships?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 9:45 am
I think asking a sheila would be a great idea.

Since my DH learns in Kollel, I pay a reduced tuition rate for my kids (about 20% less). When my brother got married in Israel, only I and my baby went to the wedding. We asked our Rav and he told me I should go, but not everyone else.
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amother


 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 9:48 am
Call me weird, but I don't see why you would discuss a maybe thinking of with the school before you decide what you want to do.
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 10:06 am
I think a lot of people made a lot of good points.

My bottom line is that if you are honest and qualify for assistance then take it.
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costanza




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 10:17 am
shoshina wrote:
Costanza, what does it mean by "you're entitled" to take a vacation once in awhile and still have someone else pay for your tuition? Is everyone entitled to vacation? Genuinely curious about the logic here...


What I mean is if you pay full tuition and to do that you and your husband work very hard, don't spend irresponsibly, give tzedakah etc. you are entitled to a vacation once and a while. Now, if you work equally as hard but can't quite pay full tuition I think you are still entitled to a vacation. How do you define a vacation? There are as many different answers as there are people.
Look, these situations need to be looked at on an individual basis. There can't be hard and fast rules because it won't work. If someone is on subsidy but needs a new car to get to work should they only get an old clunker that has 100,000 miles on it and will break down every 2 weeks because they are on subsidy? I don't think so. But they shouldn't be leasing a Land Rover either. My point is that judgment needs to be exercised.
And while I know there are abuses of the system (which properly acting committees and boards should try to prevent) I feel badly for honest people who need assistance who get lumped in with the cheaters. School is a fortune. Doing your best and needing a bit of a break once in a while is not so terrible.
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shoshina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 10:58 am
Costanza,

I agree with you that people need vacations sometimes, and the OP goes on vacations with her family every year, they are just within her means without spending her savings. We are now talking about $5000. Is everyone entitled to a $5000 vacation while they're taking tzedakah from other families to pay their tuition? Couldn't $5000 make a pretty substantial dent in the amount the other parents had to subsidize?
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JAWSCIENCE




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 11:32 am
I don't care so much about the tuition aspect - be honest with the board and take their decision. Yasher koach to you for living within your means and trying to get as much into savings as possible. It is hard for many people to do.

What I care about is that you have a very small savings that needs to cover your kids weddings, any emergencies and apparently you are also willing/planning on sending the kids to seminaries and retirement. 50,000 usually will not cover all of that so you need to be as active as you can in adding to that savings. From your post it does not sound like your income has any potential of going up soon (ie you are not graduate students about to enter the workforce or likely to get a big raise anytime soon that can boost your savings abilities etc.). However, your expenses as the kids get older will go up, limiting how much more you can save. Now you want to spend 5,000, ten percent of your savings, on a random trip to Israel. This is not a good idea unless there is something really huge about this trip you are not telling us - like a dying Israeli grandparent or something.

The Rav you spoke to told you not to deplete your savings on tuition and to apply for assistance instead because it is important to prepare for the future. You think this Rav would approve of blowing this money on a trip to Israel? That is not preparing for the future. It is spending today. It is using the money for another purpose today that will not bring in any income tomorrow. So I think at the very least you need to go back to that Rav because his "heter" on asking for tuition assistance despite having savings does not apply to asking for assistance despite going on an expensive vacation or going on an expensive vacation despite knowing that you have kids to marry off soon with no money to pay for those weddings...
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Stayci




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 11:39 am
JAWSCIENCE wrote:
I don't care so much about the tuition aspect - be honest with the board and take their decision. Yasher koach to you for living within your means and trying to get as much into savings as possible. It is hard for many people to do.

What I care about is that you have a very small savings that needs to cover your kids weddings, any emergencies and apparently you are also willing/planning on sending the kids to seminaries and retirement. 50,000 usually will not cover all of that so you need to be as active as you can in adding to that savings. From your post it does not sound like your income has any potential of going up soon (ie you are not graduate students about to enter the workforce or likely to get a big raise anytime soon that can boost your savings abilities etc.). However, your expenses as the kids get older will go up, limiting how much more you can save. Now you want to spend 5,000, ten percent of your savings, on a random trip to Israel. This is not a good idea unless there is something really huge about this trip you are not telling us - like a dying Israeli grandparent or something.

The Rav you spoke to told you not to deplete your savings on tuition and to apply for assistance instead because it is important to prepare for the future. You think this Rav would approve of blowing this money on a trip to Israel? That is not preparing for the future. It is spending today. It is using the money for another purpose today that will not bring in any income tomorrow. So I think at the very least you need to go back to that Rav because his "heter" on asking for tuition assistance despite having savings does not apply to asking for assistance despite going on an expensive vacation or going on an expensive vacation despite knowing that you have kids to marry off soon with no money to pay for those weddings...


Exactly my thoughts. Can you afford to use 10% of your hard earned savings?
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amother


 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 1:19 pm
Does the amount of tuition matter? I read this whole thread and am trying to decide that for myself. op I hope you don't feel like I'm hijacking your thread! I will remain anon for obvious reasons ...

My kids go to school where tuition is $9000 plus. For years we paid full tuition including all the extras (journal fund, raffle fund, building fund etc.). My husband is is a very specific business that has taken a huge hit because of the economy. This year we bought a house and had to put down about $70,000 as a down payment, along with help we received from our parents. My husband spoke to the principal and he lowered our tuition by $2000 a child. With 3 kids in school I paid $21,000 this year. My husbands entire family lives in Israel and they have not seen our kids in 2 years. They really want us to come and will pay the majority of the expenses. We will probably have to come up with about $4000. When we factor in that we won't be sending our kids to camp for half a summer it's only going to cost us an additional $1500 over what camp for all kids would cost.

Just to be totally honest - we drive nicer cars and have some money put away in savings, obviously that number is way down being that we just bought the house. We leased the cars when we were doing really well (paying full tuition) and now have no choice but to continue paying the lease. And yes we are looking to try to find a way out of our current expensive lease.
So I guess my question is do all my years of paying full count? And does it matter if my tuition is $9000 as opposed to some cities where tuition is way less? My siblings who live in other areas of NY/NJ are paying a fraction of the amount I pay WITH a deduction. Our expenses may be way higher because of where we live. I don't think its such a black and white answer without knowing a lot of other details.
Am I wrong?
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aidelmaidel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 23 2011, 1:41 pm
Just a question for the OP - you say the trip is for a "mile-stone" - is this for a son's bar mitzvah? If it is, and it will be IN THE PLACE of a big fancy party in the states (which will cost much more then $5000), then it might be worth it.

We have a MO friend who decided to make their son's bar mitzvah in EY and even buying tickets for his immediate family, one son in law, and both sets of grandparents, it was far cheaper then what he would have spent for a big party like his community is used to.

There was also a cousin who was bar mitzvah the same week who also went to EY, and so the mutual grandparents and assorted relatives that flew had a double reason to go.

But I agree, ask your Rov, and be honest with the tuition committee. You can say flying to EY for the BM is cheaper then making it here, and we can visit ___ family members, etc.
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