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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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Do you advocate forcing a 14 year old to daven a minimum if she doesn't want to?

Do you advocate bribing a 14 year old to daven?

35%

[ 7 ]

Do you advocate ignoring a 14 year old who refuses to daven?

65%

[ 13 ]

Total Votes : 20

gryp

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 7:58 pm

I didnt vote in the poll because I dont think you bribe a teenager to daven, nor do I think you can ignore it.
I think it should be matter-of-factly (and very wisely!) incorporated into her/his daily schedule.

isnt the teenager this thread is about in school anyway nowadays where davening is part of the schedule, or did this just come up over the Yomim Tovim?

and what talents does she have that she thinks she may have a chance in Hollywood?

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 8:00 pm

Motek wrote:

How do very frum kids know about Hollywood to the extent that they dream about it?

Non frum relatives? Non frum friends at school?

amother

Tue, Oct 17 2006, 8:45 pm

To: Motek wrote:
How do very frum kids know about Hollywood to the extent that they dream about it?
Non frum relatives? Non frum friends at school?

My answer:
Is there a child alive that doesn't know about Harry Potter in even the frummest neighborhoods? How many kids don't go to the Brooklyn Public Library? How many don't see signs on the street for movies? I have family members that shielded their kids too much and had trouble too.

Mrs.Norris

Wed, Oct 18 2006, 4:51 pm

Motek wrote:

How do very frum kids know about Hollywood to the extent that they dream about it?

not a very good argument - I know a family, very frum (no tv or internet in the house), father is a respected Rabbi yet their son has gone completely off the path of Judaism. It's sad. But you can't assume he learned it at home.

amother

Wed, Oct 18 2006, 5:01 pm

Motek, I once heard that the Alter Rebbe's youngest son went very much off the derech. Is this true ? Sources ?
Anonymous because I will be embarassed if I am wrong.

chocolate moose

Wed, Oct 18 2006, 5:02 pm

On chabadtalk, they say from a good source that the Rebbe said not to talk about "the family" like that.

drrivky

Wed, Oct 18 2006, 5:59 pm

give her lots and lots of love and more love and dont reprimand her. be an example and hashem will help.

TzenaRena

Wed, Oct 18 2006, 6:33 pm

amother wrote:

Motek, I once heard that the Alter Rebbe's youngest son went very much off the derech. Is this true ? Sources ?
Anonymous because I will be embarassed if I am wrong.

No it is not true. The Alter Rebbe's youngest son, Reb Moshe had debates with the Catholic clergy and proved them wrong. They were furious, and imprisoned him, but he escaped, and fled to a different country. The galochimwere so angry at this defeat that they spread a false rumour about him that he had ch"v converted.

If you read the zichroinos (the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe's Memoirs), you will see that the Alter Rebbe's great grandfather, R. Moshe -who was the Rosh Hakahal of Posen - was very active in defending the Jews of his area against the Anti-semitic Catholic clergy and was successful in foiling their attempts to instigate a libel and a progrom. R. Moshe had extensive business ties to various communities and was well respected by all for his brilliance and erudition. He was responsible for getting the guilty inflammatory Catholic priests in Posen- brought to justice and dismissed from their positions.

When the clergy realized that with attacks on the Jews they were'nt getting anywhere, they switched their tactics and decided to catch them with "love". Here too R. Moshe distinguished himself with his courage and foiled those attempts as well.

At that time many assimilated Jewish youth studied at the Vatican universities, and were being aggressively recruited by the catholic clergy for conversion. In the course of his activities, R. Moshe visited the Vatican and was instrumental in bringing back many of these young people to the path of their ancestors, and saving them from the schemes of the clergy.

An entire Teshuvah movement was sprearheaded by R. Moshe complete with disbursement of printed material and trips to communities in Western Europe, England and Holland. Additionally, at that time the most high ranking Cardinal disappeared from the Vatican and later turned up as a Ger Tzedek in an astounding defeat of their campaign against Judaism.

R. Moshe, the Alter Rebbe's son appeared to have inherited his great-grandfather's knack for this kind of activity, except that he was considered even more talented than him and was very daring in his approach. The Alter Rebbe was not happy about the direction that R. Moshe was using in taking on the X-tian clergy in such a bold way, undertaking to respond to their provocations and debate them. In the end, the Alter Rebbe's fears were realized, when they imprisoned R. Moshe, and intended to kill him. Then, when he escaped, they spread the above rumour. For more on this story see the sefer Beis Rebbe.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Oct 19 2006, 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, Oct 18 2006, 9:46 pm

amother wrote:

Motek, I once heard that the Alter Rebbe's youngest son went very much off the derech. Is this true ? Sources ?
Anonymous because I will be embarassed if I am wrong.

I overheard a conversation from a highly respected Rov, when talking about troubled youth, saying that the "Baal HaTanya" had a son that "shmadt" himself, Lo Aleinu.

If we only knew as much as we don't know, about how to approach these kids.

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 7:23 am

It's unfortunarely not so uncommon for children of frum people to go off the derech, just look at the WW2 generation... anyway, maybe a compromise can be found (only the shema?). But I think the child's questions need to be answered, QUICK. I definitely would look for a rav used to this problem.

chen

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 9:04 am

Going off the derech happens in the best families and has been happening since the dawn of humankind. Did not Odom Horishon have a son who murdered his brother in a jealous snit? Did not Noach, Ish Tzaddik Tomim Hoyo B-Dorosov, have two decent sons and one who committed a despicable act against his own father? Did not Avrohom Ovinu have a son who was a Tzaddik and one who was a Pere Odom? Did not Yitzchok Ovinu have a Yaakov and another son who married women who worshiped avodoh zoroh? (And the sons were twins, yet!) Did not Dovid Hamelech have one son who built the Bais Hamikdosh and another son who outraged his own sister? And that's only in the first--what? two thousand years of human history?

TzenaRena

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 9:41 am

amother wrote:

Motek, I once heard that the Alter Rebbe's youngest son went very much off the derech. Is this true ? Sources ?
Anonymous because I will be embarassed if I am wrong.

Amother, right on top of this anonymous post, I corrected you to say that the story of the vikuach that R. Moshe the Baal HaTanya's son had with the Catholic preists is printed. They tried to kill him, and when they didn't succeed THEY SPREAD THE RUMOUR WHICH YOU ARE REFERRING TO, THAT r"L he converted.

I also brought down a source where you can look it up. This is all printed in Beis Rebbe. Why are you ignoring my post?

The "highly respected Rav" that you mention is not a Lubavitcher and not familiar with firsthand sources in the writings of Chassidus or the Rebbeim. In this case, the source of his "information' is the Catholic preists.

It's a "tidbit" that some enemies of Lubavitch love to repeat. Do they repeat everything the Christians say as fact??????

The history of R. Moshe, the Alter Rebbe's son has been researched and documented. His resting place is in Hungary, where after he fled he lived the rest of his years in seclusion and holiness, but anonymity.

TzenaRena

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 10:01 am

chen wrote:

chen, I'm not sure if your post is just on the topic, or in response to mine. If it was true your point would of course be taken, but since the story she mentioned is NOT true, and was a deliberate rumour spread by vicious enemies your point is good for the general topic, but doesn't address this one.

chen

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 11:22 am

SaraYehudis wrote:

I'm not sure if your post is just on the topic, or in response to mine. your point is good for the general topic, but doesn't address this one.

I was responding to the general topic. As I have no ties, positive or negative, to Lubavitch, I have no vested interest in either attacking or defending the Alter Rebbe or his family, and whether or not he may have had a child who went off the derech is completely immaterial to me and influences my opinion of him not one iota. There are enough very fine people who did have this experience--starting with Odom harishon, as indicated--for this example, true or not, to be superfluous.

There seems to be an overall attitude in the frum community--one which is blatantly espoused by many educators--that when a child goes off the derech it is the fault of the parents. In many cases it is implied and sometimes even stated outright that the child must be learning this behavior from the parents. This is not only monstrously unfair but often--dare I say most often?--quite untrue. I cite examples of tzaddikim who had children who went off the derech to illustrate just how untrue this accusation can be.

Motek

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 1:50 pm

chen wrote:

There seems to be an overall attitude in the frum community--one which is blatantly espoused by many educators--that when a child goes off the derech it is the fault of the parents.

If you read the thread "Children on the Fringe" you will see that those who work in this field do indeed espouse this, becuase it is true, to a great extent. Not, as you wrote, because they necessarily learn the behavior from the parents but because the parent-child relationship is askew. It has nothing to do with fairness but the metzius (reality). This was explained and debated at length in that thread.

As for the examples of tzadikim, I find them offensive and irrelevant to this discussion. To compare parents of today to these tzadikim is not to begin to understand who these tzadikim, nor who their sons, were.

chavamom

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:51 pm

While the issue might be settled in your mind, there are many out there that resist the temptation to lay blame at the feet of the parents alone.

Review of the book 'Off the Derech':

Quote:

Her main thesis is that people go off the derech because they feel rejected by Rabbis and other Orthodox role models, or alternatively are exposed to very unimpressive religious role models in general. Much of the blame therefore lies with the Rabbis and the role models, rather than with the poor confused kid.

chavamom

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:57 pm

A quote from the rav you consulted:

Quote:

For some it is a horrible family dynamic which comes to expression by the child leaving his family religion. For others it is the need to fulfill hearts cravings -- girls, relationships, boys, a free life.
for some it is an attempt to find themselves. They are desperately seeking individualism and they hope to find it this way, by leaving the community and doing their own thing.
For some it is the feeling of frustration that they will never make it in the yeshiva system, so why kill themselves.
That is how I see it. I do not think there is a uniform reason or factor. But I may be wrong.

Motek

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 3:05 pm

I can quote myself from that thread too. From "Off the Derech":

Quote:

Dr. Meir Wikler, noted frum psychotherapist in Brooklyn, believes so strongly in the influence of the relationship between parent and child on observance that he says he had never seen, met, or heard of someone who grew up in an Orthodox home who became non-Orthodox and had warm, close intimate relationships with their parents.

ditto for others quoted in that thread who believe similarly

Why repeat the posts from that other thread?

as for the rabbi you quoted that I quoted - all the factors he lists lead back to the first one, I.e. if they yearn for relationships and a free life it's because the home is not providing for their emotional needs. Ditto for the other factors he cites.

and by the way chen - the pasuk actually says what was lacking in Dovid Ha'Melech's parenting as far as one of his sons

chen

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 3:17 pm

Motek wrote:

As for the examples of tzadikim, I find them offensive and irrelevant to this discussion. To compare parents of today to these tzadikim is not to begin to understand who these tzadikim, nor who their sons, were.

My entire point was, if the greatest tzaddikim of all time can nevertheless have children who strayed, how can we expect it to never happen among ordinary people? I think it is davko very relevant to the diiscussion with no disrespect intended or implied CH'V to the tzaddikim.

also, I was not talking about the attitude of therapists. I was talking about the attitude of the community at large. There is a world of difference, furthermore, between attributing a problem to a poor parent-child relationship and concluding that a child muist have learned a particular untorahdik behavior from the parents.

OT, you seem to feel that we must relate to the ovos as if they were faultless angels. the Torah itself does not treat them this way. They were human beings--amazing human beings, giants in every way, but human beings nevertheless, --and that means they had human frailties. the torah itself does not gloss over a single one of them but shows us their lives, warts and all, because obviously there are lessons for us to learn from them. We do not worship our ancestors--we revere them and worship G-d.

amother

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 3:22 pm

Motek wrote:

chen wrote:

There seems to be an overall attitude in the frum community--one which is blatantly espoused by many educators--that when a child goes off the derech it is the fault of the parents.

TO THIS brilliant writer and all the other brilliant writers who have figured it all out:

For anyone to judge and/or speculate why things happen with children is an insult to G-d (as if G-d needs help judging people), and a job that is best left to G-d.

We live in a world of predominantly shades of gray, and very few blacks and whites. This refers to our levels of knowledge, understanding, religiosity, hearts and energy. Even the most brilliant of us don't know for sure what approach in Chinuch is best for any one specific child. As any Rebbe, Roshei Yeshiva, principal, Kiruv organization heads, etc. would agree -when they are successful with a child, they are the right Shaliach from Hashem, and when they fail with a child, they were not the right Shaliach from Hashem. Anyone with the Midah of Anava, knows that they know alot less than they don't know about world events ranging from wars to child rearing. G-d only expects us, whether we are parents, Rebbes, or organization employees, to try our best, and blaming ourselves or others, when we have unsatisfactory results, is aiding the Yetzer Hara. It keeps us down and makes us feel like all our noble efforts have been in vain.

I have spoken to people with issues with children that have told me that until they had serious issues with their own children, they used to think that if someone has disastrous results with a child, it must be at least partly due to that person. Then, years later, they had a similar problem themselves, after trying their best, and regretted judging others unfavorably.

To this brilliant writer- Don't buy into putting guilt trips on others. It is wrong to do that. Generally speaking, no one does anything to hurt their own child. If they do something that has a bad effect on their own child, it is because of bad judgment, despite meaning well. There are no perfect parents. Parents, with few exceptions, generally mean well.

We are not G-d.

G-d, because of His G-dliness, does not expect us to be G-d. We, earthlings, are only expected to try our best with our G-d given resources, and generally, we do, while trying to improve and grow, as we go along.

The rest is up to Hashem.

May we all judge each other favorably and merit Moshiach.

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