What has worked for teens that "don't believe..........

mirisimma

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 10:13 pm

I must admit that I havent read the long and apparently intense dialogue that has developed form this thread, but I do want to answer the original poster, I have a friend who went through something similar with a son, and then some. Baruch Hashem the young man is now frum, married to kind sincere girl, and has a baby. you would never have imagined this a few years ago. I advise you to PM me and I'll give you her number if you want. she would have alot to share.

I also want to add something about the idea of bribing versus not bribing, as with almost eferything each individual case is unique and thats why your daughter has you - a mother to analyse each and every case. but you should consider the following, imagine a day when your daughter asks to do something like... I dunno.... join an acting club with non jews thats not shomer shabbos or tznius or anything else. If you allow her to continue, so that youre not "forcing her" what are the influences (nisyonos) you are gonna have to deal with form now on, and whats the likelyhood of success ? If you say no, create resentment, what influeces will she incurr then? what nisyonot? and whats the likelyhood of sucess if she is forced to stay "in line" even though she didnt want to be there?

I think you'll see that forcing her tp stay in line introduces no new nisyonot. her nisayon is a frustration within, and allowing her to enter a more trying situation will only be her frustrated self ina ... more trying situation.

what I recommend, is calling that woman I told you about, and love... love heals almost all wounds. if the source of uncoditional love in her life loves hashem...

I wish all the best and strength to be able to give her love and acceptance without altering your firmness in belief. I hope for you that you soon see in her the neshama that very much wants to connect to the truth.

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 10:28 pm

The book "Praying with Fire" has a lesson on davening for the success of your children. I don't know where the book is right now, but a rav is quoted as saying that Tefilah is the only thing that can help with raising children and no other advice is helpful. It's an amazing book. I actually found it because I was searching for a book for my kids that would help them take davening more seriously. It's not on their level, but I have gained a lot from it.

morningstar

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 10:30 pm

I cam across an insightful line in a book I was reading. The writer says,
" As parents, we try to protect our children from so many things. And then we discover the only thing we can protect them from is their parents' bad behavior."

Kids encounter trauma, or are born with needs so vast that no one could help them.. or dynamics of a particular family mean that it is impossible for all needs to be equally filled. They have personalities that clash with their parents, they have vast emotional neediness, their parents are financially or emotionally drained because of problems of their own. Not all families start with the same playing field.. sometimes parents are successful simply by "luck of the draw", and sometimes even excellent parents find themselves in over their head.

If a parent is unkind to a child, or neglectful, or sets a bad example, then the parent is accountable (regardless of how the child turns out). And once a parent has done the utmost to act properly, the parent must accept that there is much beyond his or her control.

So, Motek, this is not about the shirking of responsibility. It is about making simplistic and tautological judgments: if you have a problem with your kid, then by definition, you must have caused it ( and can cure it).

We seem to be reading the writings of professionals in the field quite differently. To my understanding, they urge parents to continue to exert themselves to the utmost on behalf of their kid, while acknowledging that parents ( and crisis professionals) cannot control the outcome.

amother

Fri, Oct 20 2006, 12:08 am

I think u should talk to her patiently, understandingly and show her that ure there for her and be calm eventually she'll see the right path cuz' if ure going to be down her neck she'll eventually go way off also make her see that she can talk to u about anything w/o u getting upset so shell come to u first before making any decisions, talk to her about hollywood and tell her about all the not good things aboutit how they all have horrible lives its not all glamour and eventually on her own she'll understand

TzenaRena

Fri, Oct 20 2006, 12:39 am

amother wrote:

btw, children is a mazel zach and there is a source for it although I have to locate it via dh or dad. each time I compliment my father on his childrens accomplishments as he has amazing sons ie my siblings he attributes it all to mazel and says certainly one must put their hishtadlus in but at the end of the day its mazel.

Well, the story of King Chizkiyahu would seem to support that. Chizkiyahu didn't want to get married because he knew through Ruach Hakodesh that his children would be Reshaim. Chizkiyahu that was worthy of being Moshiach! He became very ill and was about to die.

The Navi Yeshayahu told him that his illness was because of his forfeiting the mitzvah of marrying and bearing children. How they would turn out was Hashem's business, not his, but he was commanded to do the mitzvah of Pru Urevu. Chizkiyahu davened to Hashem, and pledged that he would no longer abstain from this mitzvah, and Hashem healed him.

Yeshayahu suggested that Chizkiyahu marry his daughter. Having such righteous forbears could forestall the chances of the children being wicked.

We all know the end of the story: Chizkiyahu had two children, and invested tremendous efforts in their chinuch, every day he would personally carry them on his shoulders to bring them to cheder. One day, while doing so he heard one of them say to the other how he was planning to serve Avodah Zarah in such and such a way.

Chizkiyahu turned to "patsch" the child, and the child fell off and died. Menashe, the remaining son of Chizkiyahu grew up to be wicked, and even killed his own grandfather, Yeshayahu. Crying

Still, eventually he did teshuva.

In this case, there was nothing Chizkiyahu could did helped (at first), because what was destined came about, despite everything right that he did do.. Yet, that Menashe did Teshuva undoubtedly WAS the results of his efforts.

so in this very story we have elements of both: That parents aren't always to blame, and at the same time investing hishtadlus can and does change things.

Ruchel

Fri, Oct 20 2006, 6:30 am

amother wrote:

Motek wrote:

Why do your "brilliant" remarks have to be made anonymously while deriding me? If you believe in what you say, use your screen name.

Feel free to deny responsibility and to deride those in the field for their experience and conclusions. If it makes you feel better, hey, that's all-important these days.

If bad parenting brings about bad children, why would only one of a large family go astray?

This happens many times.

Maybe one of the children is more fragile (more doubts, less emuna, less motivated, craving for something he can't have while being frum...). Also, I don't think parents raise children exactly the same way, and even if they did, children don't have the same personality & so don't react the same way.

Ruchel

Fri, Oct 20 2006, 6:39 am

ep wrote:

There was a girl in my class in HS that asked a ton of these kinds of questions. How do we know ... Why can't we do ... It doesn't make sense that ... It was really unheard of to ask these questions in our school, but that did not stop her. The teachers answered all her questions, and she absorbed every word. She ended up going to BJJ. If your daughter is asking questions, make sure she gets very good answers.

YES YES YES. Now I remember, many older people told me they were raised frum, but when they asked questions at school or even home, they were scolded or hit for being insolent and lacking faith... and they say that THIS made them hate frumkeit... Sad

amother

Sun, Oct 22 2006, 9:08 pm

Is there a child alive that doesn't know about Harry Potter in even the frummest neighborhoods? How many kids don't go to the Brooklyn Public Library? How many don't see signs on the street for movies? I have family members that shielded their kids too much and had trouble too.[/quote]

Yes, there are children who do not know about Harry Potter! I grew up in a neighborhood where the word movies was forbidden. No library going. and as for the signs on the street? Advertisements. Whatever. I didn't even know what Hollywood meant.
And now I know too much.
But most of my friends don't . It seems to work for some.

Motek

Sun, Oct 22 2006, 9:44 pm

And even for those who heard of H.P. and read books from the public library, to DREAM of HOLLYWOOD?!

I asked someone about this who works with wayward teens and his comment was that this is a sign of emotional neediness. He added that today's actors are so much better because people in general today are so emotionally needy.

So again, I ask the original poster - what is the relationship between this child and you and your husband like?

and why has she always hated these things:

Quote:

who is very bright and artistic but always hated school, davening and hebrew studies?

amother

Mon, Oct 23 2006, 9:49 am

chavamom wrote:

I do agree, I think anyone who 'dreams of Hollywood', frum or non-frum, kid in Indiana or aspiring actor has a need for attention.

We all have unmet needs to vent and communicate and in some way get attention to our thoughts, otherwise we wouldn't be chatting here.
Also, some kids think it and don't say it out of fear (fantasy talk), some kids are honest and think it and say it. Look around in twenty or so years and see if all kids you know are living the life you expected them to.

In these days of an overabundance of heimishe thieves and perverts from all of the Heimishe groups, nebach, I am willing to bet that some of these adult thieves and perverts, had unmet fantasies years ago as kids and just bottled it up.

Many kids let it out as kids, and then totally straighten out as adults. Many are perfect kids and become wacko later in life to the dismay of all around.

amother

Mon, Oct 23 2006, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

there is a book called "going off the derecg" which is great! its about how MOST if not all times kids go off its because of emotional reasons...... its TRUE!

How sad- here's a review from Amazon.com of the book you recommend, alongside other similar reviews from frum people .

"I would highly recommend this book for anyone interested in how Orthodox Judaism's own failures are causing the exodus of many adherents. The author herself is firmly religious and hence very credulous about the truth of revealed religion, etc., but her analyses of the problems of Orthodoxy are nevertheless very insightful. I could complain about the things she overlooks, but the truth is that she covers about 90% of the issues, and that's really not bad, considering that most books of this sort by religious authors are a complete whitewash. I'm even a little surprised the book was not banned (a la Slifkin), since it condemns a variety of aspects of the yeshiva world, including the focus on conformity, preoccupation with Talmud, judgementalism, hypocrisy, excessive stringency, disdain of other Jews, etc, etc. Unfortunately, despite the cogency of the argument it presets, the book won't have the slightest effect on the practice of Orthodox Judaism. That's because making changes of this nature requires leadership from the highest levels, and one of the main problems in Orthodoxy (which I don't believe Ms. Margolese mentions) is that the greater the leadership position held by an Orthodox rabbi, the less likely that rabbi is to exert any *actual* leadership. Popular but minor rabbis such as Wein or Riskin may adopt progressive positions on such issues, but the "gedolim" never will. In fact, the gedolim are the greatest hostages to the status quo, the least able to think critically and freely (see the correspondence in the Slifkin Affair), and the least eager to initiate any changes that might ruffle feathers. It's too bad that we've come to this point. I think "Off the Derech" will prompt many people to sigh and say "she's so right," but nothing else will happen."

amother

Mon, Oct 23 2006, 1:03 pm

amother wrote:

there is a book called "going off the derecg" which is great! its about how MOST if not all times kids go off its because of emotional reasons...... its TRUE!

Here's another-
"I remember one session I attended in a certain well - known Yeshiva , which will go nameless here. A young student whose background was in the sciences asked a question about the religious view of the origin of the Universe. The teacher said to the young man, "Do you have a washing machine?" The young man did not know what to say. The teacher went on. "Well if you do, you know it comes with a manual, a set of rules which tells you how it works. Now" he said holding a Tannakh (Bible) this is our Instruction Manual. Read this, and you will know how the Universe works" The young student looked a bit perplexed, but the teacher was extremely satisfied with himself. My point is that not always are our teachers and educators at the level required to meet the intellectual challenges and questions presented by students. "

Sounds familiar, no?