sharing your schar with the KitchenAid

micki

Tue, Oct 24 2006, 10:02 am

you know I actually thought of another thing.
why are women not allowed to do laundry on rosh chodesh? I never asked but in the olden days doing laundry was such an ammount of work. going to the river scrubbing the clothes by hand etc.
so we were told not to.
if by using the kitchen aid, we share the schar with it, then by the same logic we SHOULD be able to push a button to turn on the machine todo laundry. we are not doing any hard work by turning on machines- if that is the case then it should be accross the board, not pick and choose.
ok not that I WANT to do laundry but you get my point- I hope!

Ribbie Danzinger

Tue, Oct 24 2006, 12:49 pm

Mom3boys wrote:

Quote:

At the end of the day, I believe it is you intentions when doing whatever it is that you do.

I think that this is a very important point in this discussion. Salut

Even in the stories told here of Rabbanim, this is the important issue. If someone did decide to get on the wagon, use a KitchenAid etc because they were thinking about zerizim makdimim lamitzvot (people with alacrity perform the mitzvoth first) then surely that would not diminish from the schar of walking on foot, kneeding by hand etc.

Idea

Another idea for thought: a sefer Torah, mezuza etc must be written by hand. Maybe using one's hands to do a mitzvah has a spiritual significance? I know that a mitzvah that you do through perspiration is a big kaparah (atonement) for the worst sins. Maybe you can have this same intention while shlepping the machine out, turning it on, washing it afterwards Wink

!

As far as davening while kneading the dough is concerned, you might find it easier to say a few chapters of Tehillim with kavanah while the KitchenAid is doing the work... Study

Health is a Virture

Thu, Oct 26 2006, 12:48 pm

I used to always use a bread machine, and it was sooo easy and fast, but then I had to make two batches a week...and then my bread machine stopped working proplery. And so, I started making it by hand and get to do hafrashas challah....

Recnetly, my dh told me it wasn't so expensive to buy a Bosch here in Israel...and I considered buying one, but I decided against it. Why?

Because I love doing it by hand. It is sooo amazing to sit for 20 minutes (I like physical work) and giving brachos to my bread. I bless teh challah and those who will eat it and I talk to Hashem and it is such a beautiful connection with Hashem during that time. Or, my 4 1/2 year old son, if he is home kneads it for me. But, I much prefer when he is not home so that I can enjoy the kneading (my almost 2 1/2 year old daughter is happy kneading a small piece of dough). So, yes, you can use a Kitchnaid and I always thought it sounded like a lot more work than using my bread machine, but now that I do it by hand on a routien basis I realize how much more beautiful and special making challah can be.

The Chofetz Chaim defiitely wrote in teh Mishna Brurah that it is not a good thing to buy your challah from the bakery, and one should make it themselves, but obviously shalom bayis and taking care of your children is tadir to this.

chocolate moose

Thu, Oct 26 2006, 12:54 pm

I made challah for the first 10 years of our marriage. Then, only Tishre to Purim. That was anothr 6 years or so.

Then I had my thyroid thing, started exercising every day, and started cooking and baking much much less in general.

I'm not proud of buying challah all the time, the whole year....but it tastes good, we give the bakery some parnossah, and that's just where I am in life right now!

mom3boys

Thu, Oct 26 2006, 3:06 pm

I have a few more thoughts to add on this subject.
1. I remember learning that if a man can afford to hire one servant to help his wife, he should. If he can afford two, than he should hire two. Up to five.

What about sharing the schar with people in your employ?

2. If one has the time or energy to knead the dough by hand, or make gefilte fish from scratch, kol ha'kavod

Thumbs Up

. But if one's is extended to the limit by other obligations, and whatever spare time one has should be put to better use, ie. playing with one's kids, etc.

Motek

Thu, Oct 26 2006, 4:38 pm

mom3boys wrote:

What about sharing the schar with people in your employ?

What schar is there in scrubbing floors? cleaning toilets?

perhaps this comment about sharing schar applies specifically to challa because of the special things it says in sefarim about kneading the dough and being mafrish challa Question

Motek

Sat, Nov 04 2006, 7:02 pm

I thought of this thread when I read an article about the machine matza controversy. When machines were first invented to make matzos for Pesach some rabbis were for, others against.

Without getting into all of that, the part that relates to this thread is this:

"the primary objection against machine matza:
matza shemura needs to be made by committed Jews who have the proper kavana and a machine could obviously have no such kavana. The defenders of the machine asserted that a machine was a tool, no different than a rolling pin (definitely Micki's view!), and therefore, it sufficed if the Jew operating the machine had the correct kavana."

batya_d

Sat, Nov 04 2006, 9:43 pm

Health is a Virture wrote:

You can't do hafrashas challah if you use a bread machine?

Crayon210

Sat, Nov 04 2006, 10:52 pm

batya_d wrote:

Health is a Virture wrote:

You can't do hafrashas challah if you use a bread machine?

If your bread machine doesn't hold enough flour (mine doesn't), then you can't, unless you combine batches of dough, etc.

Motek

Sun, Nov 05 2006, 1:19 pm

Kmelion wrote:

What is the Halachic source of the original quote?

perhaps what was mentioned in an earlier post - the mishna in Avos "l'fum tzara agra" (according to the pain is the reward)

batya_d wrote:

I'm baffled by this whole thread. Neither KitchenAids nor horses can do mitzvos, therefore they can't get the schar for them either. Am I missing something??

I think it's meant to be figurative, to express the idea that the more you do yourself, the more reward you get.

After all, we do believe we will be rewarded for everything we do!

Motek

Tue, Nov 07 2006, 1:19 pm

I had occasion to speak with Mrs. Devorah Heller, who gives workshops on challa making. I asked her what she thought of the line quoted at the beginning of this article.

She uses a machine herself! She sells dough that she makes up to people's specifications. She asked a rav about this and was told - go ahead! These women would buy it from the bakery otherwise!

This way, they are able to be mafrish challa which she said is the MAIN thing and the eis ratzon. So it doesn't matter if someone (or something) else does all the work in making the dough, the mitzva is in hafrashas challa.

Of course she was not negating or downplaying anyone who does it completely herself or does it by hand! She was simply emphasizing the hafrashas challa aspect which she says is a woman's mitzva and one she encourages women to do.

chen

Wed, Nov 08 2006, 6:52 am

Crayon210 wrote:

You can't do hafrashas challah if you use a bread machine?

Quote:

If your bread machine doesn't hold enough flour (mine doesn't), then you can't, unless you combine batches of dough, etc.

you can't with a brocho. Unless you are making a really minuscule quantity, you still have to take challoh, just w/o a brocho.

amother

Mon, May 28 2007, 11:06 am

Mrs. Stein a'h kneaded by hand as she did not want to share the schar with a machine. (It was really more than that. She so loved Torah and mitzvos that she fully immersed herself in them.) When her son married and his wife took out a machine to make challa, he was taken aback - a machine? to make challa?! It was surprising to him!

Ruchel

Mon, May 28 2007, 1:25 pm

Dh says he has learned there are rabbis who teach that even buying the challah can be seen as doing this mitzva (if the wife buys).
Anyway I never make the challa and neither does my mom. I did it once as a teen, with a friend of mom. It turned really yucky, and the boys of the family told the mom it tasted like **** Rolling Eyes

A few days later the eldest son I was friend with told me he hoped when I would be married I wouldn't inflict on my family what his mother inflicts on hers shock

Dh also says he prefers bought challa because others are "often nauseous" LOL

Now I'm sure someone gifted with baking can make it delicious.