BY girl/Yeshiva boy in Ivy League

ora_43

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 2:25 am

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

You also have to consider what the child wants to do in the future - is it a possibly lucrative career or do they want to major in "far east women' sstudies" which just about never allow them to pay off loans? Some fields look for people with ivy degrees while others do not and focus on experience and the resume.

It's not just a question of lucrative field or not.

Davka "far east womens studies" might be much better at a private school, while chemistry or engineering or business might be very strong programs at the local state school.

It's also not just a question of which program is "better" or which degree name is more prestigious. Let's say for example that someone can study chemistry at a exclusive private university or a state school. Maybe the former has more opportunities for the best students - but if this particular student isn't going to be the best at the exclusive private school, they'll have more opportunities at the state school (where they'll be in the top 10% and able to do the kind of lab work, internships, etc, that they wouldn't have been in the running for at the exclusive school). And those opportunities will make their resume look better than it would have with the private school's name and nothing else.

That's not an unlikely scenario IME. Don't get me wrong, if someone is 100% devoted to studying science and technology, for example, and very very gifted, I'd say send them to Caltech or MIT over a state school. But if they're devoted and just regular gifted, it might be better that they shine at the state school and get all the learning opportunities that come with that, rather than struggle at MIT.

ora_43

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 2:38 am

Fox, how are DVDs supposed to replace time in a laboratory? Or debate? Or feedback from the teacher?

Science/tech/health field majors usually spend huge amounts of time in the lab doing hands-on work, as do people majoring in fields like psychology and social work, and social sciences majors usually spend a lot of time exchanging ideas and defending their ideas and focusing on research skills. I don't see any of that happening with a video lecture.

I've done several correspondence courses as well as in-the-classroom courses. I think correspondence courses are great for people who can't afford university or can't make time for it for whatever reason (eg, women who have multiple children and a job or two... ), but it's still a pale imitation of the real thing.

And that's a full-on course including a TA who grades assignments and gives feedback, not just a video. I've found videos to be good for review, but I wouldn't use one to learn a topic that's new to me. Unless it was only for enrichment, and I didn't need to be sure I understood properly.

If my kid just wanted enrichment I'd buy them videos, but if they wanted a career? University, for sure. There's no comparing.

amother

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 10:52 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Not being aware of how much you ffb people know or don't know about the uncharming traps and failures of the secular world, I got nervous. What failures? How about a median age over fifty, and a negative birthrate? In a half century they will be a footnote to our history if they are remembered at all.

"Lots of babies" is what is needed now, not necessarily from everybody, but in general. No, perhaps not everybody is suited to that. But make no mistake about it, the nation is more in need of babies now than it is in need of female French majors or even female big league cancer researchers. And yes, there is a misty area where it can be one or the other, even though that perhaps should not be true. But sometimes it is. From what I read above, some manage it all and do fine. Great. I didn't know that, not having seen a lot of people with your strong faith.

But gloriosky, the day and the year only have so many hours. My own mother z"l "did it all" and there was a lot of strain around the edges. And she was smarter and tougher than anybody alive, had an excellent secular education, and even she felt the strain of doing three things at once: mother, wife of an interesting man, serious job. Perhaps we really cannot "do it all". And yes, it's different for men. Complain to Management. BTW the total Jewish world population is fourteen million. That's a rounding error in some contexts.

Peer into the mist and make your decisions. Some of the stories above do not end well, so just be careful.

You think people don't have babies while pursuing higher education? Maybe somebody forgot to tell that to the fetus currently growing in my stomach as I go every day to an ivy league school. Or to my friend who had two babies here. Sure we need babies, but we need to be able to support these babies too. A world where women are just a glorified uterus and education is frowned upon is not very sustainable either. And no I am not rich. I am getting my entire education on scholarship without parental support for me and DH.

You don't have to do it all to get an ivy education and have babies. You just have to relax a little. I don't have cleaning help and my apartment is not spotless, that's OK. I don't need to be the very top of the class, I just need tog et he best grade I can get. And yeah, my husband actually helps at home. As a mentor once told me the more important career decision you make is who you marry. Maybe what we need is not a culture of viewing women as solely walking wombs but one that views a couple as a team tat has to do this together and create a sustainable future for our children. That means husbands do help at home, we do not guilt women who work in order to be able to pay their yeshivah tuition bills and we stop telling women to forgo education that might enable them to support a large family.

The world view of "we need babies above all else" is incredibly unfair to women. What about those with infertility? Are they worthless? It is also unsustainable. We have more chance of disappearing if we glorify a culture of poverty than we do if people decide to get educations. Orthodox groups still believe in peru urevu. We're not just to stop having kids. We may 4 instead of 14 but since replacement rate is 2.1 that's fine.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 10:58 am

nylon wrote:

4 years of Ivy League = $225K at current prices. IF you pay full whack, which you need to make quite a bit of money to do.

Tell me where in Jerusalem you can buy an apartment at that price--and you won't have the skills to pay the rest of the bills.

If my kid were smart enough and worked hard enough to get into an Ivy League or comparable university, I'd be happy for them to go. Ultimately, you're paying for the sheepskin at the end, and the name on it counts--and the best colleges do offer a better education. I'm a little biased, since the state schools in my state are not cheap (apparently, Penn State is the most expensive public college in the US).

BTW, I'm a BT who went to a secular college. Not Ivy.

Very much agree.

I would like to add, there are also great schools in the U.S. that have great names, comparable education and have cheaper tuition. Like Cooper Union or many California state schools for California residents. Buying an apartment in Jerusalem is going to cost way more and with no education the family is going to be living off tzedakah. Not good in my opinion. Having a degree can really help with getting job - even if you want to move to Jerusalem and be an English teacher. You have to evaluate each school int he context of the child in question and their life goals.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 11:27 am

ora_43 wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

My comment was meant in terms of preparing to be able to have your dream job. I know plenty who loved their majors but since they were low paying fields they had to obtain jobs in other fields to pay off their debt and never got back to their passion. With less debt they would have been able to support themselves and family in that field of their dreams. On the other hand if you are trying to get into a graduate program that will bring you a job in a higher paying field you might want the school with the higher debt load if hte school has a superior advising system and better placement into graduate school.

You comments on shining in a state school are valid, but only if the state school has a very good program. Chemistry was a bad field for you to choose as an example - it was my undergrad field!- because I is all about having laboratory experience. Getting into research labs is more about not being shy and knocking on doors than being the top student. And even the top student cannot do research at a school with no money/no stellar faculty doing research. You need a school with a lot of research opportunities and that means a school with money, and usually a reputation. Not necessarily an ivy but a school that has clout and can get grants to buy expensive machines and such. Getting into graduate school is very research history and Letter of reference based. If you have published a paper you are way ahead of someone who has all A's. If you have a letter from someone whose lab you worked in it counts much more than someone who has a glowing letter from a professor who gave them an A. A student should go with the school that has the larger research program and better faculty.

However most chemistry majors want to go to medical school. I went to CUNY for financial reasons. I got into a very prestigious medical school. But I had to work a lot harder than my peers at ivy's who had less. It basically meant I had to be the top student to get admitted while they could sit somehwere in the middle and still get accepted. This is caused by a constellation of things - better advising, better access to extracurriculars because the school had more money, etc. So again, it really depends on the student. If they are highly motivated and capable of doing it all on their own, do not want extra debt burden and can be the top of the class they can do well at a state school. Some students need an extra push or guidance from a good premed advisor. Some student do not want the pressure of having to be top of the class and having to find extra curricular activities all on their own.

Basically it is all about the child and what they want for their future and the type of programs and advising at each school. Plus what the family can afford and what the debt burden means for the students future. I thinkt he students field of study does play into that decision.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 11:38 am

ora_43 wrote:

Agreed. I want to be a physician. I knew this going into college. Would you come to my office knowing I got my degree through correspondence training??? (and no medical school is taking my application, not matter how great my MCAT if I do not have required coursework done in an actual, accredited college. I cannot take chemistry via free video. It would be pretty rare for them to even take someone with a correspondence degree and labs would still need to be done in person). I agree you might not need an ivy league education but for many fields you do need a degree from an accredited institution to get a job.

You want to be a public school teacher? accountant? You need a degree. And they pay more if you have a Master's. It can be from a state school, but you need to ave gone to school. And a good reputation school (this includes many state schools) will have better job placement and training to help you.

Some careers like court reporter or makeup artist or medical transcription do not need a degree and require only correspondence coursework. But many careers that are higher paying than secretarial work require degrees, not just enrichment videos. And even for secretarial work many employers are now asking for degrees.

The actual school to pick depends on the students, and the programs at that school. I believe many do nt need to pay through the nose for an ivy. But they can still benefit from university.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 11:46 am

ora_43 wrote:

Your reading is fine, but your memory of how things work on chat boards...

I like when we use posts as sprinboards to get into interesting discussions. BUt you are right, we should still answer OP's question.

I did not go to ivy undergrad, but I am in one for medical school. I got in just fine having a Bais Yaakov education. Most interviewers had no idea what my high school was and I had to explain to them but they did not care. I did have some catching up to do in college in terms of things not taught at BY's/yeshivas because secular education does sometimes take a back seat to other things. But as long as you have a regents diploma, or some form of education you should be fine. (Most students major issue is all the paper writing as there as much of a focus on English and composition in many yeshivas, BY's. I had no problem in this arena since it is a B"H natural talent for me).

If your child goes to a school where they stop giving secular education at ninth, tenth or eleventh grade you may have an issue in terms of admission requirements. This is why I would not send to such a school. I believe everyone needs a high school secular education to survive in the world, even if they do not want college.

nylon

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 12:06 pm

Have you all seen state school tuition lately? It is no longer a bargain in many states, especially for top tier schools. When you account for the difference in financial aid, it is often more expensive to go state unless you're wealthy enough that you'd pay out of pocket anyway. Over the long term, if your odds really are SUNY or Ivy, Ivy will pay off better.

What has a low payoff are some of the second tier privates: High tuition without the prestige payoff and they don't give as generously. These are the schools where kids graduate with a women's studies degree, $50K in debt, and no decent job to show for it. (There are several universities I would never permit my kids to attend unless I were a millionaire and it were all the same to me: I've seen too many of them leave upperclassmen stranded with financial aid, forcing them to take out back-breaking private loans.)

Also, state schools are often overcrowded, leading to fewer available opportunities. At the top state schools, admissions are just as competitive. From what I've seen of the UC system I wouldn't want to send my kids there undergrad. At the top private schools, classes are smaller and there are more professors. You get more chances, because that's what they're paying for. I've attended both a smaller private university and a SUNY, and I know which offered the better education.

Fox

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 12:12 pm

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Ladies -- you missed an important dependent clause in my original post:

Quote:

If you need a college degree for credentialing purposes, use online resources along with community college courses, etc., and transfer your credits. Going to graduate school? Instead of going into debt to the tune of $200,000-$300,000, spend some money preparing for GMAT/GRE/LSAT/MCAT, etc., exams. Learn how to present yourself and your experience well in an interview so that you stand out from all those Harvard and Yale grads.

If you need a college degree as prerequisite for work in a specific field or for graduate school in your chosen field, then, duh! Of course you need to get a bachelor's degree! And obviously, whatever undergraduate program you select should adequately prepare you for pursuing your plans.

Most colleges, however, allow a significant number of transfer credits, and this is a valuable way to shave the cost of the degree. Someone attending a liberal arts college and majoring in chemistry is not taking 120 semester hours of chemistry. She's taking a chemistry and science curriculum along with tons of electives from social sciences, language, literature, etc. Even at the most prestigious colleges, many of the courses taught to non-majors will be taught by TAs. A savvy student, therefore, can accumulate a number of these credits through lower-cost alternatives, including online and state universities and simply transfer them to her undergraduate program.

This is the point at which people usually say, "Well, but college isn't just about career preparation. It's also about becoming an educated, thinking person." Actually, I wholeheartedly support that goal, but I'm not sure college is necessarily the best way to achieve it. If attending a prestigious undergraduate program genuinely opens your eyes and challenges your ideas, then that's great. But my observation is that people who are want to learn and challenge themselves arrive on campus in that condition and remain that way the rest of their lives. People who are enrolled primarily because they think it will benefit them in their careers are too busy slogging through their courses and minding their GPAs to benefit much from a traditional liberal arts education.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 12:18 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

(Most students major issue is all the paper writing as there as much of a focus on English and composition in many yeshivas, BY's. I had no problem in this arena since it is a B"H natural talent for me).

I actually thought our HS prepped us pretty well in terms of the writing papers aspect Wink

The English teacher's style very much mimicked what my college and university professors expected.

We went to a Girl's school that also did a Regent's degree so we had to take the English regent. Boys schools tend to focus less on the English composition because they need to devote so much time gemarah. Some boys could use a couple hours tutoring on the English language and composition to avoid having a nasty shock in when they in their first paper. I am not saying it is horrible and that yeshiva/BY grads do not speak English. I am saying it is the most likely area I can see them needing help with because it the area most frequently kicked to the curb when time is needed for other things. Math is usually not the first to go....

MaBelleVie

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 12:25 pm

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

I actually thought our HS prepped us pretty well in terms of the writing papers aspect Wink

The English teacher's style very much mimicked what my college and university professors expected.

I hear. My experience has been that non-Jewish students in my classes were not better prepared than I was in general, for all subjects, unless they were graduates of specialized HSs. My sister is doing a degree in a field that BY did not provide background for at all, but neither did most PSs. the only ones with the advantage are those who attended specialized HSs.

Fox

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 12:30 pm

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

Actually, it's not just Jewish schools where writing instruction and practice is a problem. Virtually every high school system struggles to help students develop adequate writing skills. Because of the proliferation of email in business, writing is more important than ever. It's also one of the most difficult, expensive skills to teach, requiring enormous outputs of energy and time to give students coaching and feedback.

FYI, outside of the Tri-State region, the concept of "Regent's" is considered sad and hilarious. It's as if an entire state has admitted that their school system is so inadequate that they've had to develop a whole system to distinguish the graduates from the qualified graduates. While college admissions reps who recruit in NYS are certainly familiar with the concept, people from the rest of the country just wonder why the student didn't take "Honors" or "AP" courses.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Aug 19 2011, 12:55 pm

Fox wrote:

FYI, outside of the Tri-State region, the concept of "Regent's" is considered sad and hilarious. It's as if an entire state has admitted that their school system is so inadequate that they've had to develop a whole system to distinguish the graduates from the qualified graduates. While college admissions reps who recruit in NYS are certainly familiar with the concept, people from the rest of the country just wonder why the student didn't take "Honors" or "AP" courses.

I totally agree. But the fact that we had to take an English regent and several science regents and several math regents meant the school was forced tot each us at least a minimum in those subjects. I know they would have preferred to teach less. Many schools in NY that are not offering Regents degrees routinely do teach less, unless we are referring to certain MO schools that do not offer regents because they want to teach more. Sad, but true.