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BY girl/Yeshiva boy in Ivy League
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Depressed




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:02 pm
when my mother went to ps you got a better education then any college provides today.
Because today everything is geared to the lowest common denominator.Thank the liberals
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:07 pm
Fox wrote:

FYI, outside of the Tri-State region, the concept of "Regent's" is considered sad and hilarious. It's as if an entire state has admitted that their school system is so inadequate that they've had to develop a whole system to distinguish the graduates from the qualified graduates. While college admissions reps who recruit in NYS are certainly familiar with the concept, people from the rest of the country just wonder why the student didn't take "Honors" or "AP" courses.

Well they are just ignorant. NY students have a huge advantage over the rest of the country because every single student in every single school in NY is held to the same standard to get a Regents diploma. What's sad and hilarious is the students graduating high school in NJ (ie Lakewood) and the like where the english subjects are taught by 1st-year-out-of-seminary grads who read the chapter the night before the class to prep, and then can't explain to the class why 1/2 if bigger than 1/4 if 4 is bigger than 2. The country would be in way better shape if we all took regents. Just look at the SAT- it used to be THE way to distinguish between who's straight A's in high school were really A's and who's were really C's. Now it's not politically correct to figure out who is a good student and who is not so they have been reconfigured and no longer have the same status.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:08 pm
esteec wrote:
just a shout out to BYLA that taught AMAZING writing skills!

it was definately the teaching (as opposed to my natural talents) we had to write 2 essays a week starting in 9th grade that were graded properly and had to be rewritten.


That's it! I'm moving to California! Of course, I'll only be able to afford to rent someone's dilapidated back house, but those are the breaks.

My DDs in 10th grade last year wrote a single term paper (6-10 pages) and the teacher didn't return them for 6 months. There were a million excuses . . . this teacher had a baby; that teacher had sick mother. . . but the whole exercise might was utterly useless. The girls had literally forgotten about the papers by the time they got any feedback.
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:09 pm
And just to add- my NY BY alma matter offers at least 4 AP courses and a few college accredited classes to juniors and seniors. Having a Regents diploma does not prevent any student from taking AP and Honors classes as well.
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suzyq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:22 pm
Fox wrote:

Most colleges, however, allow a significant number of transfer credits, and this is a valuable way to shave the cost of the degree. Someone attending a liberal arts college and majoring in chemistry is not taking 120 semester hours of chemistry. She's taking a chemistry and science curriculum along with tons of electives from social sciences, language, literature, etc. Even at the most prestigious colleges, many of the courses taught to non-majors will be taught by TAs. A savvy student, therefore, can accumulate a number of these credits through lower-cost alternatives, including online and state universities and simply transfer them to her undergraduate program.


I think this is one of the most important points that has been brought up in this discussion, especially when you are talking about a frum student, but even for non-frum or non-Jewish students. I have a co-worker whose daughter is starting her senior year. My co-worker is busy taking her daughter on all the college visits and worrying about how she will pay approximately $23,000 - $43,000 PER YEAR for her daughter to go to college. The $23k figure is for an in-state public institution. Of course, these figures include room and board on campus and books and whatever else her daughter will need. My co-worker, who, on a regular basis complains that her family is tight on money, refuses to limit her daughter's options when it comes to college, nor will she even consider the possibility that her daughter lives at home. She wants her to get "the experience." Whatever, that's what she wants to do.

But, honestly, as someone who grew up in a household that considered college the necessary step after college, and after going through undergrad and a well-known grad school that left me in debt and without a job in the field I studied, I can't imagine giving my children a free pass at that kind of money. I see no reason whatsoever not to spend at least 2 years taking classes at a community college and getting prerequisites out of the way at a fraction of the cost of a state school or any other 4-year university. Because once you transfer over, and finish your degree, your piece of paper has the name of the 4-year university anyway. But it cost you 1/2 of the price! And your child can get the "experience" for 2 years, if that's what you want for them.

(Personally, I'd like to teach my children that in order to spend that kind of money you must also earn some money also, and that freedom and independence also comes with responsibility rather than mommy and daddy's credit card, but that's besides the point.)

I'm sure there are some fields where paying the premium pays off, but honestly, these days, it's very few careers where that kind of money do equal a higher salary, especially right off the bat. I know too many college grads who are unemployed and have no prospects (not for lack of trying) and those who jumped in and started working are the ones who are making it. College has lost a lot of what it used to be valued for. It's a shame, but it's the real world today.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:31 pm
farm wrote:
Well they are just ignorant. NY students have a huge advantage over the rest of the country because every single student in every single school in NY is held to the same standard to get a Regents diploma. What's sad and hilarious is the students graduating high school in NJ (ie Lakewood) and the like where the english subjects are taught by 1st-year-out-of-seminary grads who read the chapter the night before the class to prep, and then can't explain to the class why 1/2 if bigger than 1/4 if 4 is bigger than 2. The country would be in way better shape if we all took regents. Just look at the SAT- it used to be THE way to distinguish between who's straight A's in high school were really A's and who's were really C's. Now it's not politically correct to figure out who is a good student and who is not so they have been reconfigured and no longer have the same status.


So how would "Regent's" then differ from SATs? And if this is such valuable information, why do both SUNY and CUNY also require SAT scores from students with Regent's program diplomas?

To the best of my knowledge, SATs are still required by virtually every accredited college, and they comprise a significant piece of "evidence" regarding a student's ability to successfully finish a college program. The addition of the writing component to the SATs obviously attempts to ascertain whether a student can express him/herself as opposed to filling in a bubble form accurately.

Participation in "Honors" or Advanced Placement courses demonstrates a certain level of intellectual ambition and drive.

So, basically, no one west of Philadelpha understands what Regent's degrees/tests do that isn't already being done by the College Board (SATs and AP courses) or by local school districts (Honors courses). Except, of course, use NYS taxpayer money to pay for an entire infrastructure of administrators!
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cm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:43 pm
Fox wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, SATs are still required by virtually every accredited college, and they comprise a significant piece of "evidence" regarding a student's ability to successfully finish a college program. The addition of the writing component to the SATs obviously attempts to ascertain whether a student can express him/herself as opposed to filling in a bubble form accurately.

Participation in "Honors" or Advanced Placement courses demonstrates a certain level of intellectual ambition and drive.

So, basically, no one west of Philadelpha understands what Regent's degrees/tests do that isn't already being done by the College Board (SATs and AP courses) or by local school districts (Honors courses). Except, of course, use NYS taxpayer money to pay for an entire infrastructure of administrators!


I'm not sure if anyone west of the Hudson River knows what Regents are, much less what they signify. I remember college students from New York trying to engage other students in conversation about it, and getting nowhere.

SAT's have been changed in recent years, easier in some ways ("verbal" or English), harder in others (especially in math, but also writing), and are now similar to the ACTs which historically have been more popular in Western states. Better colleges will tell you that test scores are not a major factor in admissions; they look at the overall package, so to speak.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 1:44 pm
JAWSCIENCE wrote:
Fox wrote:


FYI, outside of the Tri-State region, the concept of "Regent's" is considered sad and hilarious. It's as if an entire state has admitted that their school system is so inadequate that they've had to develop a whole system to distinguish the graduates from the qualified graduates. While college admissions reps who recruit in NYS are certainly familiar with the concept, people from the rest of the country just wonder why the student didn't take "Honors" or "AP" courses.


I totally agree. But the fact that we had to take an English regent and several science regents and several math regents meant the school was forced tot each us at least a minimum in those subjects. I know they would have preferred to teach less. Many schools in NY that are not offering Regents degrees routinely do teach less, unless we are referring to certain MO schools that do not offer regents because they want to teach more. Sad, but true.


What JAW said. BY/yeshiva schools outside of NY that do not have strict state guidelines often teach at a ridiculously low level, and offer a very minimal curriculum. Which is really an outrage, but besides the point. At least Regents ensure that the school covers certain material.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 2:16 pm
First of all, the Regents exams go back decades. My parents took them in the 1950s. Second, there used to be 2 tiers of diplomas in NYS: A regents and a local. They abolished the easier tests (RCTs) in the '90s. So it's got nothing to do with falling standards. If anything, the opposite: things have been watered down so everyone takes the test, rather than preserving it for the brighter students.

A Regents exam does not substitute for the SAT, AP, or honors. It is to ensure that the college prep classes in NYS are all taught to the same basic level. College administrators who get students from NYS know what the tests mean, and what they don't. It's just a standardized state final exam.

I went to a NYS public high school, and we had separate Regents and honors classes. This was back in the 2 tier days, so then there were non-Regents classes for students who were not expected to go to college at all. APs were what you took after the Regents. So, you'd do 3 years Regents math (honors students started in 8th), pre-calc, AP Calculus. Regents English is done after 11th grade, so 12th grade English is the AP course. Etc. Some schools complete both the regents and the AP in the same course (usually the social studies courses though I've heard of a few doing it for Bio). I graduated with students who completed 5 or 6 APs, and that was in 1994.

If you consider the Regents "sad and hilarious" it's either because you don't understand them, or you're misguided. Most other countries use standardized tests and curricula. The US is the exception.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 2:29 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
What JAW said. BY/yeshiva schools outside of NY that do not have strict state guidelines often teach at a ridiculously low level, and offer a very minimal curriculum. Which is really an outrage, but besides the point. At least Regents ensure that the school covers certain material.


But that's a matter for state accreditation and local school boards. Maintaining a separate infrastructure makes no sense.

For example, let's say that State X requires every student to take 3 years of math in order to receive a diploma. Now, what that math consists of may vary from student to student as well as what options are available.

If Jane Smith is fortunate enough to attend HS in a well-funded and well-administered district, she will be able to choose from a wide range of courses, ranging from remedial math to advanced calculus. Some of these courses may be deemed "Honors" if their curricula is especially advanced or they may be part of the AP system. The school board and administrators in Jane's district will feel considerable pressure to offer options at both ends of the spectrum in order to attract families to the community based on the educational resources. However, Jane's performance on the SAT will give college officials a general idea of how demanding a math program Jane pursued and what her general competencies are.

John Smith, on the other hand, attends an inner-city school few resources and fewer options. He, too, is required to take 3 years of math to receive his diploma, but the level of instruction is generally low, and despite earning A's, his SAT scores reflect that he simply doesn't know as much as Jane.

It is the role of college administrators to review Jane's and John's applications, speak with them, and get a sense of (a) whether they can actually do the work required; (b) whether they would gain from attending the college; and (c) whether their perspectives would add to the intellectual and cultural life of the campus.

Essentially, the Regent's system duplicates activities that are already performed by the College Board and by local school districts. Let me hazard a guess: the students in NYS who perform well on in Regent's courses/Regent's exams just happen to do better on SATs than general diploma students and just happen to be more likely to enroll in Honors or AP coursework.

The rest of the country is certainly not against imposing standards that require schools to offer instruction at certain levels, nor are we against the concept of being able to demonstrate superior knowledge or skill. We have state boards of education and local boards of education to do the former -- in fact, that's their main job! We are happy to allow the College Board, a private non-profit association, to validate and quantify the latter. And we are happiest of all to force teachers' unions to put their members to work teaching rather than running redundant programs.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 2:52 pm
nylon wrote:
A Regents exam does not substitute for the SAT, AP, or honors. It is to ensure that the college prep classes in NYS are all taught to the same basic level.


But no one is explaining to me who cares whether the college prep courses are taught on the same level or why state/local school boards aren't monitoring that. Or why the SAT isn't adequate for ascertaining a student's level. And if the Regent's tests tell a college more information about a potential student's preparation than the SAT, why would CUNY/SUNY not accept Regent's scores in lieu of the SAT?

The original Regent's exams served a "gatekeeper" function in the Civil War era and were developed at least in part to create what we would call an accreditation standard today. Now, though, we have additional entities that accredit our schools!

It's entirely possible that there's a good reason for the Regent's system to exist, but it hasn't been presented yet.

nylon wrote:
College administrators who get students from NYS know what the tests mean, and what they don't. It's just a standardized state final exam.


This explanation would make sense if the following conditions were true:

1. NYS colleges (e.g., CUNY/SUNY) accepted Regent's scores in lieu of other documentation; or

2. Regent's students could be quantitatively shown to demonstrate higher levels of success (e.g., rate of completion, average GPA, grad school admittance) than students from states without a similar program. I'm not aware of any such evidence, nor does the NYS Education Department make any such claims -- which I would expect they would if they could document it.

But back to my point: The admissions committee at a prestigious college weighing the credentials of a Regent's diploma graduate from NYS and a student from Wyoming who has taken Honors and AP courses will not give more weight to the Regent's diploma. They'll look at the courses, the SAT scores, etc., to get a feel for the student's capabilities.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 3:08 pm
The SAT and the Regents are apples and oranges. The SAT is a test of basic math and verbal reasoning. The regents are subject specific tests measuring outcome from particular courses. The SAT II is subject specific, but no one takes them in every subject (and it would be very expensive if we chose to use ti that way), and in the case of math, the SAT is cumulative. The Regents is taken each year for math. So, they don't perform the same function for college admissions, either. You still need both.

The Regents does provide a way for SUNY and CUNY schools to compare students within the state because it provides a more complete picture than just the SAT. It also makes it easier to compare schools.

Your argument, BTW, could be used against all the state tests that EVERY state gives now. NYS is only unique because private schools generally take the state exams and always have. If we were comparing public school students, all the kids would be taking state exit exams.

Also, the Regents IS part of the state education department. It's not some huge separate structure. NYSED just has a slightly weird structure. The Board of Regents is the governing board of the state education department.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 19 2011, 4:24 pm
nylon wrote:
The SAT is a test of basic math and verbal reasoning. The regents are subject specific tests measuring outcome from particular courses. The SAT II is subject specific, but no one takes them in every subject (and it would be very expensive if we chose to use ti that way), and in the case of math, the SAT is cumulative.


Well, isn't it cumulative knowledge that counts? Why would anyone care that a student learned what he was supposed in one year and then promptly forgot it?

And wouldn't completion of AP courses/tests provide the same uniformity for basis of comparison?

nylon wrote:
Your argument, BTW, could be used against all the state tests that EVERY state gives now. NYS is only unique because private schools generally take the state exams and always have. If we were comparing public school students, all the kids would be taking state exit exams.


Well, that's a common criticism of exit exams. They provide too little information, too late, to benefit students. Their primary benefit is to the schools themselves, who can use the feedback to improve curricula, etc.

nylon wrote:
Also, the Regents IS part of the state education department. It's not some huge separate structure. NYSED just has a slightly weird structure. The Board of Regents is the governing board of the state education department.


Well, they have a budget of $45 million just for Regent's testing! So someone, somewhere, is running off a heck of a lot photocopies. In contrast, Illinois spends about $3 million on testing. Now, that represents state expenditures only. Private schools and high-income school districts can spend as much of their budgets as they wish to test their students. But the difference in the amounts coming from the public trough is significant.

I'm not meaning to be hyper-argumentative about this. If NYers like this system and are willing to pay for it, kol hakovod. If they find it useful to know who has a Regent's diploma and who has a general diploma, kol hakovod. But if you're applying to a school or job outside the NY region, don't bother putting it on your resume or brandishing it as evidence of your accomplishments. Even if your interviewer is polite and/or knows the system, he/she is probably thinking, "Well, all right, then! By all means, knock yourself out with that Regent's stuff! Now, let's talk about your coursework!"

At the micro level, it is very frustrating for me to hear about people in NY struggling to find employment that pays them adequately. My DH and I closed the NY office of our business about 5 years ago because of all the ridiculous state and city taxes, fees, and assessments. It seemed like every time we turned around, we were being notified that we had to pay $120 fee for some crazy thing and $1200 for something even crazier.

We finally got fed up and moved our whole operation. Illinois isn't exactly the most business-friendly state in the nation, but compared to NY, it's a mechaya! In closing the office, we laid off 5 full-time frum workers, each earning at least $50-$70K. Now, the NY economy is hardly going to suffer because of our little mom & pop operation leaving, but multiply that by hundreds, and the job market is impacted.

Moreover, while NY sees a lot of small business development, the businesses most likely to relocate are those that hit certain revenue points or numbers of employees. In other words, owning a hot dog stand isn't a problem. But if you're successful enough to expand into four hot dog stands employing 10 or more workers . . . well, NYS will start requiring enough paperwork, taxes, and fees that you may well end up saying, "To heck with it; let them buy their hot dogs from somewhere else." There will go the minimum wage hot dog helpers, but also the part-time bookkeeper, the night manager, etc. The architecture firm, contractor, and restaurant supply firm will cross you off their lists of clients, and after enough defections, they'll have to lay off people, too.

I'm not saying that ending the Regent's program would solve all NY's economic issues. It's simply an example of a mindset. And this is why much of the country regards the Regent's program as the equivalent of a high-priced designer handbag. It may, in fact, be absolutely top quality, and it may look great with your outfit. But it's still overpriced for what is, essentially, just a bag for your wallet and checkbook.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 20 2011, 11:31 pm
I went to Barnard and those were my most observant years ever. If I was in Barnard today, I would probably be more frum than I am now.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Aug 20 2011, 11:32 pm
Also, it's not being admitted from a yeshiva into an Ivy, it's how well you can do once you're there.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 1:42 pm
My daughter wants to apply to an Ivy League university. Is it possible to get in from by? Does it pay? Is it possible to stay very frum? WhT about the dorm?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 2:06 pm
amother wrote:
My daughter wants to apply to an Ivy League university. Is it possible to get in from by? Does it pay? Is it possible to stay very frum? WhT about the dorm?


Here in Boston, we know frum girls who went from BY to MIT. They stayed very frum, and did not dorm. They had some challenges finding shidduchim, because a lot of people ruled them out without investigation. (My DH also went to MIT, but he went to a MO school.)

There are frum kids at many of the campuses. Their stories and levels of commitment vary. It really depends on the person.

Does it pay? That is a big question. The answer is not as simple as it once was. It depends in large part on what she wants to do. In general, statistics show higher earnings in most fields with a college degree.

That being said, my DD did Raizel Reit. The undergraduate degree was much less prestigious, but she got her BA in under a year, and her MA and certification in her field by age 23. If she had gone to a traditional school, she might have started at a higher salary, but probably not, and she would not have been building both experience and savings for all those years, plus, she would have had a big debt to pay off.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 2:30 pm
amother wrote:
My daughter wants to apply to an Ivy League university. Is it possible to get in from by? Does it pay? Is it possible to stay very frum? WhT about the dorm?

Yes, it is possible.
As for whether it pays - that depends on a million factors.

Frumkeit - Some people thrive being the only frum person and many people get dragged down.

I know several people who dorm at Ivy Leagues. It works for them. I would not describe them as BY type although they may have gone to BY previously. They would not use the shidduch system, etc. But for them that is probably not a bad thing.

However, if your daughter is interested, she probably isn't typical anyway.
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syrima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 3:19 pm
What area of study is she considering?

if she can do it in Touro, Stern, or city college I would do that instead.

There are very few BY girls at the ivies these days, I would not send my DD even if she were a genius.
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Kugglegirl




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 18 2014, 3:29 pm
There is a very strong frum presence at University of Pennsylvania. They have a kosher dining hall & the kids like to be on campus for Shabbas. There are also frum grad & law students, many choose to live near the school.

If you are on the east coast, she should go & visit some of these schools in person.

Even if you are not on the east coast, if she is serious about wanting to go to an Ivy leauge school, she should visit.

Personally, I think you get out what you put in & you can get a good education at a state college or a private college, as long as you know why you are there.
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