TA vs. TI in Baltimore

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Sep 19 2011, 11:18 pm

I'm yeshivish, but looking for a school that will give my sons an ability to relate to others who are different from him.
TA absolutely has a greater mix of boys than TI.

Can anyone tell me why they sent their kids to TA/TI,
As far as why we chose TA over TI...
DS#2: Well, 13 years ago when we moved here from California, all we heard was that both schools were (and are) excellent. So we asked a shaila. The rabbi we asked then "interviewed" 9-yr-old DS#2 over a Shabbos dinner, asking him him things like "What states did you drive through on the way to Baltimore?...Illinois? Do you know how to spell that?" And then the Rabbi advised us to "Send DS#2 to TA, be sure to get him into the gifted program." So we did.

Dear foster son: DFS was doing poorly at another local day school. TA accepted him -- and seems happy to have him -- even though he is not academically strong and has a difficult family situation. In his 2+ years at TA, he has flourished. He would not have been a good fit at TI.

Note: The gifted program was more of a pull-out than anything else, and I don't know what TA is currently doing for gifted kids.

as well as what their hashkafa is
We would consider ourselves out of town American yeshivish. No television. Yes internet (highly restricted use for children and teens). DS#1 is in kollel. DS#2 is in yeshiva in Israel. Neither has gone to college. There are families at TA both to our right and left hashkafically.

and why they felt that TA/TI was right for their kid?
I am impressed by the emphasis on having an enjoyment and zest for learning, and a love for Yiddishkeit. TA is a happy and warm place. And the education is pretty good too! In addition, TA has been extremely accommodating of our sons' special needs -- in middle school, DS#2 was placed in advanced math classes with boys 2 and 3 grades higher, and dear foster son (now in 3rd grade) receives daily pull-out resource room instruction.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 9:48 am

Rubber Ducky wrote:

There are families at TA both to our right and left hashkafically.

OP here. Can I ask you what you think the proportions are? I know that sounds like a strange question, but...We're just about where you are right now, maybe a bit different. And in my conversation with dh last night, he brought up a lot of interesting points. If your kids didn't watch tv -- did you ever have a hard time with your ds going to a friend where you suspected the tv would be blasting? Or with other kids in his class singing secular music or similar issues?

The reason I'm so confused, I think, is that I went to Bais Yaakov of Baltimore, and I was one of the ones who would have been introducing my friends to tv and secular music, without even realizing that their parents had a problem with it (or, as I got older, realizing and not really caring much). I remember my friends and I sitting around and singing secular songs at the tops of our lungs during recess, and I know that other girls were uncomfortable with it. I just wonder, coming from the parent's end of things, how you felt about that, or how you dealt with your kids in terms of that? On the one hand, I want my kids to grow up strong enough to know where they stand, even when other people are doing things differently. On the other hand, you can't expect much in terms of that sort of maturity from an elementary school kid whose friend thinks that SpongeBob is the best thing ever!

The other point dh brought up was whether the kodesh academics were at the same level as TI's, especially at the middle school level. He said that it seems that most yeshivish boys at that age are learning with their fathers, brothers, whatever, even outside of school, whereas even the most studious non-yeshivish boys are not doing so, which has to have some impact on the level of learning that's expected in school. Also the fact that TI has such little emphasis on secular studies, so gemora etc becomes even more of a priority...and that because the time, emphasis, on secular studies in TA is greater, there's logically less time and mental energy for gemora learning.

I'm not bashing anyone, and I really don't want anyone bashing me or my dh. I respect everyone's choices here, especially because part of me really wants my boys to get a good secular education too -- at least in English and math, and a basic one in science and history/geography/whatever. But as someone who values my boys' torah education "even more," at least in theory...I'm very confused.

Anyone want to give me their two cents?

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 9:53 am

Tova -- I see that you edited your post. I really don't want to pm anyone from Baltimore, as I'm not ready to "out" my location Sad

But I do have a question for you, if you'd be willing to post it here. Did you feel like TI's secular studies were strong enough? I know they don't even touch English until after they learn Hebrew, and while I understand them...my son knew all of the English letters before he turned two (including what a handful of them said), and some of the Hebrew ones too. I'm nervous enough about him learning to read before kindergarten, but if the rest of the kids in his class don't even know that B says /b/ until first grade...he's going to be bored out of his mind! Not to mention unstimulated and unlikely to like reading or English classes EVER.

Or did you feel there was really no difference?

Depressed

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:13 am

Tova, RD or someone else, can you be kind enough to explain something to me. I notice, at least in Lakewood and NY, but Im sure its like that in Baltimore .

Everyone is taking for granted that its either/or secular or Kodesh studies get priority. I see clearly, with very very few exceptions that, yes if your son is the Gra or the Chazon Ish it works that way in theory. However, for the rest of us, children that arent encouraged to excell in Limudi Chol have very poor work-study habits, which carrys over to learning.

In Lakewood for example, there is an inner circle that are tremendous masmidim and Talmidei Chochomim, but the unwashed masses, tend to be lazy and undisiciplined. Hence they lack a lot of basic understanding in Torah, and have no secular education either. By and large, they are very 'ehlich' sincere ppl, but they never developed strong work-study habits that children from schools that take limudi chol seriously provide.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

Tova -- I see that you edited your post. I really don't want to pm anyone from Baltimore, as I'm not ready to "out" my location Sad

My son is in first grade at TI now. He knows how to read. He knows how to do math. At this age, he really doesn't care, and probably feels good about himself, that he knows what the teacher is saying.

(Same for Hebrew -- he came in knowing the alef bais and just about reading, never was understimulated.) At this age, it's all fun anyway. My son is the type who likes to do worksheets as activities. I'd give him some at home to occupy his time, so he views it as fun when his class is learning 's' makes the /s/ sound. So he writes the S on the worksheet, and I'm going to be honest and say he comes home close to 5 PM and is such a happy kid. He's happier now than he was when the school day was shorter. It might not be intellectually stimulating (I.e. getting him to think much at this point), but it's stuff he likes to do. And when the rest of the grade catches up, there will be no concern. According to his English teacher, by the end of the year, the class on average is reading at a 3rd grade level. (She said for the boys who know how to read, the 3rd grade teacher will test them sometime in the year for enrichment to see where they are and work on comprehension skills, instead of reading skills.)

For extra stimulation, I take out books from the library, and let him read them on his own....he's really not lacking due to their method of teaching Hebrew in pre-1a and English in 1st.

I had the same concerns as you, but he really is thriving (this is 2 weeks into school though Smile

)
The older grades I think is when secular studies starts slipping -- I can't answer you about that. I really didn't make cheshbonos where to send my son based on what secular studies he'll do in 6th grade. I have a feeling, based on the fact that he takes after my husband in many ways, that if he needs enrichment, he can do it after school at home...I'm really not that worried.

One thing I will say is that my son has been the youngest in his class for the past couple years, and is socially immature even if you looked at other boys who just turned 6 (many of the boys in his class are 7 or close to it). If he wasn't so bright, I might have held him back, but since he was ahead to begin with, I didn't entertain this option. This may be a consideration for some people -- to match up where the kids are socially and academically -- but I think it's unique to us since my son is born in the summer (deadline is September). If your son is born in the middle of the year, it's much less of an issue.

Another thing about not liking English...at least my son's teacher gives them treats. I can't say I'm happy about it, and I have no idea if all the teachers do, how it is at TA, etc but it's something to get the kids happy. Before I knew to expect this, I made up with my son (who was worried about the long day, when I knew he'd do fine; he needs structure which he didn't get at home at that hour) that I'd make him a special afternoon snack for right before English, and he looks forward to it. Hashkafically, I feel funny about it (shouldn't I be making Torah special? But he already has an interest to go then...BTW, his rebbe said he tries to reward them with more learning sometimes...meaning, if they ask a good question, he'll show them the rashi, even though they're only in 1st grade; I liked that Smile

) -- so his afternoon snack is usually a homemade trail mix of cheerios, almonds, raisins, and a few chocolate chips. Believe me, he looks forward to the afternoon Very Happy

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:29 am

Depressed wrote:

I don't see this in Baltimore at all. I think it's very different, but I'm not in Lakewood/NY to compare. From what I hear, not all schools there even meet the credentials for state requirements in education.
My son has English homework every night. He does it right away to be over and done with it.
As far as kodesh, poor study habits?! If anything, l'hefech -- don't they have chiyuvim to learn X amount at home? My son in pre-1a had kriah several times a week. Over breaks, he had packets of kriah as well. He's expected to learn over Shabbos.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:29 am

Yikes, I just typed out a post and it got deleted.

I chose TI for a number of reasons. One is that I was not impressed with how TA is run, in terms of staff/administration. I'm not going to go into details on a public forum, because I don't think I can express myself well without sounding self-righteous.

Another reason I chose TI is because, again,without sounding self-righteous, this isn't going to come out well.....but my family is very careful about kedusha and tahara, and in that regard, TI is amazing. Again, I don't feel like I want to go into examples of things in a public forum, but we can leave it at that.

In terms of secular studies, I have first handknowledge of the curriculum and some teachers at both schools, and I'm not sure where the stereotype "TA has better secular studies" comes from. Is it becuase the kids spend a longer amount of time on it each day? I don't know if that makes it better. I don't think that either school is fabulous, but they both teach the kids what they need to know to get into high school and further education. honestly, if you're kid is inclined towards pursuing higher education, he will be able to figure it all out when he's 18, regardless of what he learned in 7th grade.

B'kitzur, I don't think either school is great in secular studies, so I wouldn't make that a huge factor in your decsion.

you can email me at ys9936@gmail.com for more info.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:37 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The older grades I think is when secular studies starts slipping -- I can't answer you about that. I really didn't make cheshbonos where to send my son based on what secular studies he'll do in 6th grade. I have a feeling, based on the fact that he takes after my husband in many ways, that if he needs enrichment, he can do it after school at home...I'm really not that worried.

But I feel like I NEED to make this cheshbon, since it's so hard to get them into the other school midrun. Although maybe it's only hard to switch into TI (which I heard is always full at the point) rather than into TA? I just don't want to kick myself later on, that's all. And even if ds does get enrichment at home...I'd far rather that he didn't waste every afternoon. Especially if (does anyone know if this is the case) there is a lot of chutzpah to the afternoon teachers, and nobody really cares about it or takes it seriously. I don't know if that's a stereotype or not; if it is, please do enlighten me.

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Another thing about not liking English...at least my son's teacher gives them treats. I can't say I'm happy about it, and I have no idea if all the teachers do, how it is at TA, etc but it's something to get the kids happy. Before I knew to expect this, I made up with my son (who was worried about the long day, when I knew he'd do fine; he needs structure which he didn't get at home at that hour) that I'd make him a special afternoon snack for right before English, and he looks forward to it. Hashkafically, I feel funny about it (shouldn't I be making Torah special? But he already has an interest to go then...BTW, his rebbe said he tries to reward them with more learning sometimes...meaning, if they ask a good question, he'll show them the rashi, even though they're only in 1st grade; I liked that Smile

) -- so his afternoon snack is usually a homemade trail mix of cheerios, almonds, raisins, and a few chocolate chips. Believe me, he looks forward to the afternoon Very Happy

The teachers give treats? Sugar high so that they'll actually do their work? Hm...

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:44 am

To the original amother: it sounds like you're looking for someone to tell you that TA is "more wonderful" than TI in many, many ways, and that it's a hands down, no brainer decsion. I don't think it's going to happen. TA is a great school, it has pluses and minuses. TI is a great school, it also has pluses and minuses. If you're so super concerned about the secular studies, and you'll feel better sending to TA, then you should go ahead and do that. But since you asked, people are giving their opinions.

Also, I believe (don't quote me on this) that the chazon ish paskened that making cheshbonos more than 5 years down the line is not in the realm of hishtadlus. Meaning, if you're kid is now 4, you don't need to be worrying about what he will be learning when he is 11--- a lot could change between now and then!

and puh-leeze? do you think they don't give treats at TA? again, first hand knowledge: they do!

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:46 am

amother wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I can't answer you about chutzpah between the 2 schools. I see a lot of chutzpah in kids everywhere right now (yesterday 2 bais yaakov girls !!! ran out in front of my car, did a silly dance, and then cleared the road, sigh)...
I think you're going to have to go to the schools and see how the kids are behaving yourself to see if there is a difference between the 2.
I also think that even if secular isn't as great as it should be (either school) and it is important to you, you haven't lost the window for chances of higher education. More important is what yeshiva he will go to and how secular is treated there -- that's what paves the way to college. He can make up a year or two deficit at the elementary level, which honestly I'm not sure he'll have if he's ahead of the game.
I'd be happy for my son to learn some science on his own and I think he'd gain a lot more by doing so than in any classroom when he's 11. He'd be too young for labs and the like anyway...so I didn't really think so far. (There is also no guarantee we're staying in Baltimore, which is I guess why I thought thinking so far ahead when there isn't that big a difference between this aspect in the 2 schools was pointless)...

Quote:

The teachers give treats? Sugar high so that they'll actually do their work? Hm...

I'm not happy about it, but my son brings it home -- a licorice or whatever. It's for right before supper, not what he eats in class. (AFAIK)
But I'm told this is a widespread issue everywhere, and maybe not just a TI thing. Don't get me started. It's bad enough I'm makpid my son is in a booster. I can't start complaining about junk also....

racz

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:57 am

A few things that might answer some of the question.
I am a TA parent to a 8th grader (has been in TA since Nursery) and married to a TA graduate.

TI recently hired a new english principal and hopefully that will make some positive changes to the English program. I have heard that if you are not a current parent it is harder to get a child into the school.

Someone commented on TA administration, we did have many issue with elementry school but there was a turn over with the administration and I saw some positive changes, They also hired someone who is incharged of the english curriculum.

My son was in resource room (PTACH) from Nursery till 1st grade, I am not sure if TI has a resource room.

In Middle school there is a Gold track and Red track, and regular track, the gold track are for children who are more challenged academically or socially, they don't switch classes all afternoon like the other tracks. The Red track is honors, for math the Red track has 2 tracks R1 is one year ahead in Math and R2 is 2 years ahead of math. The honors track is for all english subjects. In 8th grade English has 2 honors classes for the higher honors and regular honors.

Also, the middle school has a new English Prinicipal who came from silver spring and then Rambam.

In either school you need to be child's advocate and make sure your child gets what he needs.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:00 am

amother wrote:

I'm yeshivish, but looking for a school that will give my sons an ability to relate to others who are different from him.

It's unlikely that you're kid will learn this skill/talent in school. you have to model it at home! Believe me, my husband is a BT, he went to top-notch public schools, then to an "almost-Ivy" college, and he still has a hard time with this!

I think that part of the problem today is that parents don't look at school as their "partner" in chinuch. They look at the school as their "shaliach" in chinuch! Sure a rebbe or a morah can teach your kid chumash, etc....but it's up to US, the PARENTS to instill middos tovos, respect, yiras shamayim, ahavas yisrael, etc.... Sure the schools can help us out with a cute "middos contest" or "gam ze l'tova" bulletin board or whatever, but at the end of the day, the school cannot take responsibility for teaching our children these concepts.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:01 am

OP here:

To the previous amother...I am not looking for you all to tell me anything. I'm writing about my concerns for TA to the mother who sent her ds to TA,a nd I"m writing about my concerns for TI to the mother who sent her ds to TI. I want to know what they think of my concerns, whether they had them, and whether it's still an issue for them.

One more question -- are there ay differences in teaching styles between the two schools? Any other differences I should know about or look into?

I'm scared to base my decision on a one-time look into (I'm assuming) one classroom at each school. that's why I want to ask other mothers who have been there!

Oh, and one more big issue. My dh says that the only "yeshivish" people sending to TA nowadays are people who were sending to TA for years, mostly older than us. But that people in our circles who have been sending kids for the last few years have by and large chosen TI. For my dh, this is a big issue, although I could never explain to anyone else just WHY he feels that it is one. Have any of you noticed this, especially those of you with kids at TA?

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:06 am

amother wrote:

I'm yeshivish, but looking for a school that will give my sons an ability to relate to others who are different from him.

I agree with you,but I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I was nervous to send my ds to an "all yeshivish" school because I know that it's much easier to get along with people who are different from you if you are actually WITH people who are different from you. for example, I went to BYB from an MO background, so I knew that yeshivish people weren't all stuck up snobs. My MO friends from NY, who went to all-MO schools, looked down on yeshivish people. And I've met yeshivish people who look down on MO and believe all the stereotypes out there. I love the fact that Baltimore was not like that, and yet I'm nervous that TI is a step down the wrong path because it leaves out a large segment of the orthodox population.

That's all.