TA vs. TI in Baltimore

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 8:06 am

racz wrote:

I have heard that if you are not a current parent it is harder to get a child into the school.

In either school you need to be child's advocate and make sure your child gets what he needs.

Regarding admission, some years are harder to get in, other years are easier. First priority goes to current parents so it depends how many brothers of current students register. About 4 years ago, apparently, the first 60 of about 75 spots went to siblings, leaving very few spots for new families. But that's a very high number-- it's usually not that full. Also, I know 2 parents who eventually "pushed" their way in for their sons in Pre1A.
Either way, you just need to call the day after isru chag sukkos to put your name on the list. If you call right away, you'll probably be okay.

Rubber Ducky

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 8:08 am

Note: I wrote most of this about an hour ago and I see there have been a bunch of posts in the meantime:

OP here. Can I ask you what you think the proportions are?
This is very much a guess: about 15% to our right, 50% more or less where we are, 35% to our left.

If your kids didn't watch tv -- did you ever have a hard time with your ds going to a friend where you suspected the tv would be blasting? We have always -- here in Baltimore and also when we lived in California -- told DSons that they're not permitted to watch TV at friends' homes: "Nothing with a screen unless you clear it with us first!" Most people will respect that. I can think of 1 family where we do not let DFS play inside because of insufficient parental supervision.

Or with other kids in his class singing secular music or similar issues? ... coming from the parent's end of things, how you felt about that, or how you dealt with your kids in terms of that?
With DFS, he unfortunately has a lot more exposure than we'd like to secular culture through one of his parents. I can't fix that, but he knows what's acceptable here. Even our older sons did not grow up in a bubble, and they also grew to understand what was acceptable, that different families may make different choices, that if a friend does something that's not acceptable in our home, you don't have to participate.

Also..We played the Maccabeats Chanukah video here dozens of times because DFS was familiar with the original secular song. We fortified him by giving him access to more appropriate lyrics.

On the one hand, I want my kids to grow up strong enough to know where they stand, even when other people are doing things differently. On the other hand, you can't expect much in terms of that sort of maturity from an elementary school kid whose friend thinks that SpongeBob is the best thing ever!
Actually, when DFS came to us he did think SpongeBob was the coolest thing ever. We didn't talk about it much because we're careful not to denigrate his parents' more "modern" choices... and now he's outgrown it. We can talk about the way our family does things; if the overall atmosphere is warm and loving, it's accepted.

The other point dh brought up was whether the kodesh academics were at the same level as TI's, especially at the middle school level. He said that it seems that most yeshivish boys at that age are learning with their fathers, brothers, whatever, even outside of school, whereas even the most studious non-yeshivish boys are not doing so, which has to have some impact on the level of learning that's expected in school. Also the fact that TI has such little emphasis on secular studies, so gemora etc becomes even more of a priority...and that because the time, emphasis, on secular studies in TA is greater, there's logically less time and mental energy for gemora learning.
DS#2 graduated as valedictorian of his HS class in Scranton, a top-notch yeshiva.

...part of me really wants my boys to get a good secular education too -- at least in English and math, and a basic one in science and history/geography/whatever.
TA middle school's honors class -- or whatever they call their fast track class -- is first rate.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 8:14 am

amother wrote:

:

One more question -- are there ay differences in teaching styles between the two schools? Any other differences I should know about or look into?

I'm scared to base my decision on a one-time look into (I'm assuming) one classroom at each school. that's why I want to ask other mothers who have been there!

I think you're smart about this. It's really hard to make a decsion based on what you see for 6 minutes in a well-behaved classroom! No, I don't think there are differences in the actual teaching styles. I think the differences are more subtle.

But you do need to be careful about biases. Most people are biased, even without knowing it. It's human nature to want validation: I want you to send to my school because that VALIDATES my decision, ykwim? Also, when you speak to other mothers, you have to realize that they are speaking based on their own experiences. For example: my kid doesn't have any major academic issues that "cloud" is school experience, so it's easy for me to say that xx is a great place. But if he had an issue that wasn't so simple to deal with, I might feel differently about the school and how they were addressing it.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 8:20 am

amother wrote:

I'm scared to base my decision on a one-time look into (I'm assuming) one classroom at each school. that's why I want to ask other mothers who have been there!

You won't base it on that, but you'll have a lot more to work with to make your decision...it's not just one classroom. We saw several, and several grades...meaning preschool, a couple of first grades, a couple of 8th grades, etc.

Quote:

Oh, and one more big issue. My dh says that the only "yeshivish" people sending to TA nowadays are people who were sending to TA for years, mostly older than us. But that people in our circles who have been sending kids for the last few years have by and large chosen TI. For my dh, this is a big issue, although I could never explain to anyone else just WHY he feels that it is one. Have any of you noticed this, especially those of you with kids at TA?

I don't think that's necessarily true. There are actually several people with kids in kindergarten, father in kollel, sending to TA this year (their first borns).

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:01 am

we just started our youngest in TA this year, DH is a TA grad. just some observations: the class is really a mixture, I'd say probably similar to what rubbyducky said: 50% middle of the road yeshivish, and the other half either to the right or to the left. I spoke to the preschool coordinator and expressed some concerns I had initially with the class list. She told me that at this age, she's not as concerned about the list, especially bec. we hand-picked a teacher that would be a good fit for DS. She told me that in the future, we could request boys that we knew and liked and they would try to accommodate.
DH got an excellent secular education at TA but I have been told by many that it is not as good as it used to be. I agree that Mrs. Severin is trying very hard to up the level.
Personally, we are Rabbi Berger's yeshivish. I ideally wanted to send to TI bec. I feel like the majority of the families are where we are holding frumkeit-wise. There are definitely less at TA, though most of the families are good solid frum people, albeit not Ner grads and maybe don't dress yeshivish. Academically, we feel right now that TA is a better fit and that's why we're there, but we will see what the future holds.

abby1776

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:11 am

We moved from Monsey to Baltimore last year. My DS is 6 and entering first grade. Last year in Pre 1A - he had the nicest clasee of boys, 90% from yeshivish families that didnt let their kids watch TV. He learned a ton!, How to read Hebrew and English, Math - I was very impressed.

This year he is in first grade and has an excellent Rebbe, they mixed up his class, so he is not with many of the same boys from last year, but so far, I do not see him bringing home any bad middot or secular influences (we do not have TV, and my kids are young and do not use the Internet, other than for viewing family photos or skyping with relatives). DS is my oldest and I would say this year and last his class is a mix of older established families with lots of kids, and younger families where the first grader is the first or second child in the family.

We chose TA instead of TI because when we were in Monsey, we had several neighbors who were TI graduates and had awful experiences there. Now - our neighbors went to TI aprox 15 -20 years ago and it may be different. One of our neightbors father is still a Rebbe at TI and from what he said it hadnt changed much. Based on these first hand experiences, we could not in good conscious send our child to TI and so far our experience with TA has been a very positive one.

abby1776

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:19 am

Also - as for father son learning - so many fathers in our syngogue learn with their sons that go to TA. I think that is more of a father/son thing then a school thing.

Honestly, all the families I have met from TA that live in our neighborhood are top notch fine, erhlich families, with strong values. I am sure that TI is also a fine school and I have no experience with it so I cannot comment. But so far, TA has been very good experience - I would say the only down side is that they are very academic and push the boys. In monsey my son went to Darchai Noam, R' Horowitz's yeshiva and the pace was much slower and it took him a lot of time to get used to the pace and homework (for a 5 year old!) at TA.

I also understand that TI has school on sundays starting, I think with kindergarten or pre 1A and TA only starts sunday school at 2nd grade and that may make a difference to some people. Also, there are 4 first grade classes at TA and for financial reasons (which I think is a good reason), I believe that there are 2 full time Rebbe's for first grade, so two classes will have English in the morning and kodesh in the afternoon which a lot of people object too - but I think if you tell the school your preference, they do try to accomadate it.

We actually asked for kodesh in the afternoon, because DS is much stronger in that area and needs more help with English and by the afternoon, he is tired and worn out and just cant concentrate on English.

Tova

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

Tova -- I see that you edited your post. I really don't want to pm anyone from Baltimore, as I'm not ready to "out" my location Sad

But I do have a question for you, if you'd be willing to post it here. Did you feel like TI's secular studies were strong enough? I know they don't even touch English until after they learn Hebrew, and while I understand them...my son knew all of the English letters before he turned two (including what a handful of them said), and some of the Hebrew ones too. I'm nervous enough about him learning to read before kindergarten, but if the rest of the kids in his class don't even know that B says /b/ until first grade...he's going to be bored out of his mind! Not to mention unstimulated and unlikely to like reading or English classes EVER.

Or did you feel there was really no difference?

I'm happy you saw my post; I decided to remove because what I mentioned isn't relevant to most people (so why put a damper on one of the schools).

My son is only in Kindergarten, so I can't talk for secular studies. I did hear from friends, though, that until 3rd grade, the secular studies is great and on par. After that, well, talk to people w/ older kids. I decided that if need be, when we get up to it, if I need to provide an incentive to my son to do some extra workbooks or "homeschooling" or whatever in math and english so be it (of course this gets complicated in the older grades when their time after school is for chazara and mishmar, etc.). When I posted about some hesitations on one of the private forums I remember someone (HY? shalhevet?) saying that if my son is interested in science or whatever, he'll want to learn about it more on his own.

My only concern is that my son should have the skills he needs, whether he decides to spend his life in kodesh or earn an outside parnassah.

obagys

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:33 am

My son is currently a 3rd grader in TA -we started him there for nursery. My husband is a TI graduate (and is a professional - we're not a kollel family, to further disprove that stereotype). My husband preferred sending to TI but I pushed for TA and he gave in because ultimately, both are excellent schools. I *personally* feel more comfortable in TA, relate to their administration better, their attitude, the teachers, and really love the warmth, friendliness, and approachability of the principal, Rabbi Kahana.

Between my nephews in Baltimore (which is 20+ K"H), my friends' sons, and my own son's friends, I know of many boys in TA & many in TI. Honestly, the TA kids and the TI kids are not very different from each other. I really believe that *most* boys can flourish in either school, both in Hebrew & secular subjects. I think it is the boy's home life - his family and how the household is run - that ultimately shapes and molds him. School influence definitely plays a part; I'm not denying the power of exposure that one gets from his peers and surroundings outside of his home. But a boy who is, what most people would consider, a "standard, average" kid is going to be fine in either school and can excel in either school. So while it is a major decision when looking where to send your son to school, unless your child has some specific issues that need to be met and/or addressed by his school, he will really be fine in either place. You and your husband really just need to go with your gut of where you would feel most comfortable sending him.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 10:43 am

Quote:

Honestly, the TA kids and the TI kids are not very different from each other.

I agree. You can't look at the average school aged boy and intuitively know which school he goes to. There are all types in both schools, and one thing I think parents have to keep in mind is that for all the talk TI gets about being "more yeshivish", you still have to watch carefully who your kids associate with.
You'd think a no-TV, no-internet-lchatchila type of school would be full of sheltered kids, but it's not. Even in kindergarten, you'll hear boys talking about killing or whatever. And that is not something I allow in my household (and not something the morah allowed in the classroom either!)...

Tova

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:16 am

Whoa - this thread got intense.

Sorry OP - I had just skimmed over your post the first time and now see that you are b'davka asking about secular studies in the preschool (ie - the fact that in the beginning they only teach alef bais and not ABC). This was not a concern for me because b"H my son knows the ABC, what sounds they make, can find letters, etc. way before he started school. I don't have a background in early childhood education to know which "method" of learning to read I agree with, but practically speaking I think a lot of the boys know ABC even though they haven't officially learned it in school.

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:20 am

obagys wrote:

Between my nephews in Baltimore (which is 20+ K"H), my friends' sons, and my own son's friends, I know of many boys in TA & many in TI. Honestly, the TA kids and the TI kids are not very different from each other. I really believe that *most* boys can flourish in either school, both in Hebrew & secular subjects. I think it is the boy's home life - his family and how the household is run - that ultimately shapes and molds him. .

I agree. As someone who has first-hand knowledge* in both schools, they are really not that different. Most boys from these schools, at age 17, if they decide to got to medical/dental/ actuarial school-- they'll be fine. I don't really think that it matters so much how many book reports they did in 5th grade.

Look at Bais Yaakov Balt. --it has a rep. for being much more "academic" than Bnos. But you can see plenty of girls who are recent grads who are not that interested in learning and are looking towards less academic seminaries and less academic careers: sheitels, day care, etc... (I'm thinking of the girls who have babysat for me within the past few years years).

So in the end, if your child is academically inclined and at age 17, 21, or 25 decides he wants to go on to a professional career, which school he went to at this age is not going to be a huge factor.

*I'm sorry,but having neighbors who went to a school 15 years ago is not "first hand knowledge."

Tova

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:25 am

Great post obagys. You really summed up what there is to say. A "regular" kid will do fine (more than fine, b'ezras H') in either school. If special needs on either end I would give the decision more weight. Personally the "ruach" of TI spoke to us more (and we like the no TV/internet policy of TI although of course as HY said it's no guarentee of anything).

OP - have you visited the schools yet? Once you do you may find that your heart pulls one way or the other or it may be easier to make what seems like now to be a very hard decision. I was very devil's advocate to send to TA (just ask my husband!) because I didn't want to send to TI by default just because we're kollel people, my brothers went there, etc. Once we visited the schools it was SO crystal clear to me that TI was the right place for us.

[Now we need to talk about BY and Bnos because this time next year we'll iy"H be checking out girls' schools Wink

]

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2011, 11:51 am

Tova wrote:

I was very devil's advocate to send to TA (just ask my husband!) because I didn't want to send to TI by default just because we're kollel people, my brothers went there, etc.

OP here. That's me!! I think my dh can't figure out why I keep on questioning TI. I love the idea of a community school -- at least in theory. But in today's world, I don't know...

I do hope to visit the schools. Can I set up something now, before y't (or in between y'ts)? Do I absolutely HAVE to figure it out now, or everything is going to fill up? What's the timeline here?

And thank you so much, everyone, for the wonderful responses! I just want to add, in case it makes any difference, that my son is very smart (isn't anyone's kid? But really, he is, and very verbal), quieter, relatively obedient, and not good at standing up for himself. Also not the best (although getting better) at making friends or playing with others, takes a while to warm up to people, doesn't do well in large groups. I don't know if one or or the other would be better for that personality, but any input would be great.

Baltimore people give the greatest advice Smile