What happened to the valedictorians?

Motek

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 11:39 am

I read:

"One researcher, after spending more than 15 years following the careers of high school valedictorians, concluded that most of them simply, "know how to do school. They are not the group to look for, for creative breakthroughs ... or for becoming notable leaders in a particular area."

Looking back, what happened to the girls who were top of the class with marks?

What about those who led choir, dance, G.O.?

What about the most popular girls?

Where are they today?

Were the successes in school those who later became successes in life - more than the average girls in school?

red sea

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 11:51 am

interesting thought.

I think from my experience that charisma gets you the farthest. wherever that is, and book smart w/o the charm and social skills gets you no place special.

"they" say that careers are made 1/3 of social skills, 1/3 of personal presentation, and 1/3 of skill. So the valedictorians certainly have the one third, but the other 2/3 is on an individual basis.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 12:03 pm

Hmmm...the valedictorian in my class definitely isn't making her mark on the world in a public fashion, but I think she is the only one with a steady, professional job at this point.

Popular girls might be applying their talents, not necessarily to their profession (although that is possible), but to the community she is involved in -- whether it's organizing events, or welcoming newcomers just by bringing a cake privately...and the creative people definitely haven't lost the creativity when it comes to building her home.

What matters is not what the public sees, but how each woman applies her kochos to her life and is able to do what is best for her and her family given what Hashem has blessed her with.

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 2:19 pm

*tries to remember hard*

Quote:

Looking back, what happened to the girls who were top of the class with marks?

They are students in areas like law, biology... those who don't really plan to work are in areas like sociology, languages (me!), decoration...

Quote:

What about those who led choir, dance, G.O.?

We didn't have this

Quote:

What about the most popular girls?

Generally, failed university (if they graduated high school). Many of them have weird lifes, one of them is married to a very nice guy she humiliates in public to feel better about her failures. I also remember another one, a Jewish girl Sad

, who didn't manage to pass from middle school to high school and became extra promiscuous (even with non jews Sad

).

Just asked my mom, she said girls from her school were like that too (except now the tops of classes are not students anymore but having or having had great jobs).

carrot

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 2:40 pm

I think it depends on why/how they "did school well," were popular, or creative, etc...

Each of these skills can develop or express themselves positively or negatively.

There was one girl in my class that was always "popular" but part of the way that she held that position was by being pretty nasty to whoever disturbed her ideal social situation (I.e. someone who also became friends with her "best friend," or later on her "best friend" who was no longer convenient.) So by the time that we all became adults she had pretty much alienated everyone else in the grade. I don't think she is all that popular anymore.

I do agree that being able to "do school well" cannot not all by itself predict any sort of success in adult life. (Other than an academic career.)

As I have definitely found out by now, "real life" is a WHOLE lot harder than school!

That's why I sometimes wonder why we force kids to stay in school who are not interested and not cut out for it. We work so hard trying to get them to comply with school rules simply because they are school rules. We call it education but a lot of it is simply manipulation. We create artificial situations that students have to learn to deal with, and we say we are training them for life. But wouldn't they get the same valuable lessons about self-control, self-presentation, time management, etc. by having a job, where the need to behave well is built-in, not artificially insisted upon?

For example, we have all kinds of rules about attendance, what happens if you come late, are absent too much, etc.... Well if you have a job, and you are late or absent too much, you lose the job. Lesson learnt.

Motek

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 3:13 pm

carrot wrote:

That's why I sometimes wonder why we force kids to stay in school who are not interested and not cut out for it.

When it comes to limudei kodesh, the reason to keep them there is so that they grow up and remain religious and have an observant home. Sad if it's forced, because that's self-defeating.

amother

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 3:17 pm

Motek wrote:

When it comes to limudei kodesh, the reason to keep them there is so that they grow up and remain religious and have an observant home. Sad if it's forced, because that's self-defeating.

I think many of those that opted out of having a frum home we're pushed too much past their individual limit to comply with frumkeit rules.

Lesss Frumkeit is still better than no frumkeit. Do you agree?

Crayon210

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 3:21 pm

amother wrote:

Motek wrote:

When it comes to limudei kodesh, the reason to keep them there is so that they grow up and remain religious and have an observant home. Sad if it's forced, because that's self-defeating.

Which mitzvos do you propose dropping? Shabbos? Kashrus? Relationships with members of the opposite gender? Tefila?

amother

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 3:36 pm

I am outwardly frum. And technically I do all the things I'm supposed to do: Shabbos, Kashrus, Taharas Hamishpacha, etc. I don't daven though. And I have no positive feelings towards the Mitzvos I do other than a certain familiarity. In fact I am very resentful of many of them.

I think if I was a little bit less restricted when I was growing up - I.e. not made to feel guilty about liking to read, about not liking to daven, about appreciating certain aspects of non-Jewish culture, etc., I would have a more positive feeling towards Yiddishkeit. It worries me that I will not be able to pass on any positive feelings towards my kids because I don't have any myself.

Sometimes perfection gets in the way of "good enough."

amother

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 4:08 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

Motek wrote:

When it comes to limudei kodesh, the reason to keep them there is so that they grow up and remain religious and have an observant home. Sad if it's forced, because that's self-defeating.

Which mitzvos do you propose dropping? Shabbos? Kashrus? Relationships with members of the opposite gender? Tefila?

None at all- just a more relaxed attitude towards them. I'm not behind starting a new version of Frumkeit.

Blossom

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 4:29 pm

I can understand amother very much because I know a person in a similar situation.
It's not at all about dropping mitzvahs. It's about being more lenient with certain things that a child feels restricted with. Meaning Chumros and Minhagim (with a ravs haskamah) that are not davka Halacha. Most such kids are not interested to desecrate the Shabbos or eat Pork, KWIM? They might just want to be able to read or explore a little. Wear different type of clothing not davka contrary to tznius although a little contrary to what your family wears. Making it feel like Yiddishkeit is restricting can lead to dangerous consequences. These situations are not clear cut and to each their own but I agree with carrots point and amothers point.

Also amother, you wrote

Quote:

It worries me that I will not be able to pass on any positive feelings towards my kids because I don't have any myself.

Hey, That says it all!!! Obviously you do have feelings because you want to pass it on to your kids!!!

(edited because of typos)

Blossom

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 4:37 pm

Quote:

Crayon210 wrote:

? Relationships with members of the opposite gender?

sthillmom wrote:

Quote:

is that a mitzvah??? interesting. since when???

LOL sthillmom. I think what crayon meant was the mitzahs on relationships between members of the opposite gender such as Yichud etc.

amother

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 5:42 pm

Blossom wrote:

Also amother, you wrote

Quote:

It worries me that I will not be able to pass on any positive feelings towards my kids because I don't have any myself.

Hey, That says it all!!! Obviously you do have feelings because you want to pass it on to your kids!!!

Blossom, you are really sweet. But I think if I wasn't married and in a certain sense "stuck" in this lifestyle I would probably just be more modern and not have any problems. How to deal with the kids though?