Materialistic vs. Spiritual vs. G-dly

Flowerchild

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 9:24 pm

spirituality- being in touch with nature and everything around you, where your soul is inspired, by different things around you where your soul connects to G-d and seeks him, all the things that religion contains are spiritual tools to bring us closer to G-d

G-dly- perfection, a high level of perfection which all of us are striving to come to. only G-d is perfect and all powerfull, He has abilities to do things which we can never do, we connect to G-d through spirituality. Our soul yearns for Him.

Esther01

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 11:22 pm

Lillyofthevalley wrote:

I love your answer.

ny_ima

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 11:32 pm

G-dly is all-inclusive: Spiritual (obviously) and Materialistic;
in Teva/Nature He is hidden.
Material is Gashmius-Gashmi-Megusham = unrefined
Though very much a part of, it is the least spiritual and
thus the furthest from Holy and G-dly.

This Olam HaSheker is the furthest from G-dliness.
In Olam HaEmes, on the other hand, our pure Neshomos
do not need the material body or world.
For us to exist, Hashem 'filtered' His G-dliness to create a
world where we can live without being consumed by His
Light. In His Greatness, he extended to us the ablity to be
empowered by having Bechira to do good in this material
world, and by choosing to do so, we 'fix the world' and can
be included an integral part of the creation! This is G-dliness!

Quote:

g-dly sounds strict, harsh, and not enjoyable.

G-dly is Emes + all the other middos (kind and just...)
If you look into 13 middos of Hashem, you will find more kindness
rachum, chanun... and less strict and harsh!! 100% FAIR...
We can serve Him out of fear or out of Love!

There is no true enjoyment in this world other than doing His
will. The fleeting pleasures of this world not only do not last,
but leave us feeling emptiness and searching spirituality...
If we use this material world to do Mitzvos (L'Kovod Shabbos,
Hiddur Mitzvos...) we raise the Gashmi to Ruchnius, by giving
it meaning and purpose and ever-lasting life.

Hashem created so many different foods For Us to enjoy and
appreciate, and not only to survive. We can ENJOY all these things
and thank Him and say Brachos with Kavana, to return the materialistic
sparks (nitzotzot kedusha) from the food, etc. up to spirituality
to the rest of our Neshama which is already pure and 'with Hashem'.

Since we only have Bechira in this Materialistic world, and in order
to give us the fair hardship in choosing either good or bad, it seems
difficult at times to realize and remember that material pleasures and
goods are only obstacles for us in making the right choice. The Yetzer
Harah works overtime trying to trick us into wanting 'the good life'!
May Hashem help us overcome and get the REAL good lives!

busymom

Tue, Oct 31 2006, 11:40 pm

Motek wrote:

How about V'Zos Ha'Bracha 33:1 "And this is the bracha that Moshe Ish Ha'Elokim (man of G-d/G-dly man?) blessed the Jewish people before he died."

Quote:

g-dly is doing something for g-d. unselfish.

spiritual is selfish.

I wonder if the following example fits this idea:
Some Buddhist monks sit and meditate all day long, disconnecting from the earthly world, and they are certainly spiritual, but not G-dly. I read a book ("Coming Back to Earth") about one such Jewish guru, Gil Locks, who after yrs of such an existence became a baal tshuva. Today, he no longer lives the life of a hermit b/c he knows that he won't accomplish much for Hashem that way. Constant meditation may feel good for the soul, but one must also DO in this world. So while he still meditates, he also spends lots of time at the kosel each day bringing secular tourists closer to yiddishkeit.
So, one can say, that his life was more spiritual - meaning disconnected from all earthly things - before, but it's certainly more G-dly now!

carrot

Wed, Nov 01 2006, 2:06 pm

Motek wrote:

carrot wrote:

g-dly sounds strict, harsh, and not enjoyable.

oh dear

How about V'Zos Ha'Bracha 33:1 "And this is the bracha that Moshe Ish Ha'Elokim (man of G-d/G-dly man?) blessed the Jewish people before he died."

And why was he dying? Because Hashem was taking away his life. Simple matter of consequences, perfectly fair, discipline, etc.

I would rather be reborn as a lizard.

chen

Wed, Nov 01 2006, 8:36 pm

you can be 'spiritual" without being G-dly. New Age, wicca and eastern religions are all "spiritual", as was an acquaintance of mine, nonjewish by birth, who practiced a sort of shopping-mall spiritualism in which she adopted any custom of any religion or philosophy that appealed to her. "spirituality" has everything to do with your internal feelings and not so much to do with your actions per se.

G-dliness, now that's different. That's doing what you do because you love G-d and want to follow His ways, or you want to be like Him, or you simply believe that what He commanded you is the right thing to do. You can be G-dly and grim...or you can be G-dly and a ray of sunshine. (Though one cannot be truly G-dly and totally grim, since G-d commands us to rejoice at specific times.)

You can even be G-dly wthout being especially spiritual, though I daresay that most people who are truly G-dly are probably both.

Motek

Sun, Nov 05 2006, 6:20 pm

Some people look at Torah and mitzvos as the tools to develop their spiritual potential, that besides potential for worldly things, there's potential for spiritual things which is developed by Torah and mitzvos. Chasidus teaches that this is a mistake.

Torah is not for developing spiritual potential. It's there to enable a person to transcend his spiritual potential, not to develop and fulfill it, but to go beyond it, go beyond the finite, go beyond who they are and how they see themselves, to completely go out of that which defines the human experience, to transcend it and connect with the divine experience.

Until age 75 Avrohom was developing his natural spiritual potential, it was difficult and challenging but he was developing his spiritual potential. First he developed his innate potential, then Hashem tells him “lech lecha”, as the preparation for Mattan Torah.

(G-d is not material nor is He spiritual (though many frum people think G-d is spiritual). Spirituality (like angels) is also a creation.)

So until 75 Avrohom achieved the highest possible attainment he could naturally. Then, with a divine commandment it all moved to another level, now actions are divine. Hashem says - go out of your land, your desires, your experiences, your birthplace, the things that change and motivate you, your father's home, your heredity, the things that define you as a human being. For if you are to become a divine being you have to go out of those things which define you as a human being. Connecting with G-d means letting everything else go.

Materially it's lech lecha from your: experiences, environment, heredity

Spiritually it's lech lecha from: eretz-ratzon - go out of your desires, your spiritual goals and ambitions; birthplace = your spiritual source, and father's house - even transcend that level of spirituality which you are consciously aware of, put even the level of transcendent spiritual awareness which you are aware of on a different level of awareness.

cont. in next post

Motek

Sun, Nov 05 2006, 6:21 pm

cont. from previous post

If Hashem wanted to create divine beings, he could have created divine beings, but he created finite (not divine) beings so that they can raise themselves up. To achieve a state of divinity, to be one with the Divine - He didn't have to go through the process of creating a world. The purpose of creation is this world, for even after transcending self to achieve divinity, we must go back, take that bond, and bring divinity into our human, phsyical and spiritual life,

Lecha Lecha is a two-way trip of connecting with the Divine and after establishing that connection. taking that divinity and bringing it back into the world. Avrohom was given a limited ability to accomplish this. He did not have the power to take physical objects and transform them into divine objects as we do after Mattan torah (a Sefer Torah, tefillin etc.). We infuse physical things with sanctity.

The ultimate fulfillment of this process, the process connecting with G-d and bringing G-d and G-dliness into the physical world in a way which infuses his physical life with G-dliness and holiness, is in the coming of Moshiach when "all flesh will see that the mouth of Hashem has spoken."

(from notes)

p.s. for carrot: I know that this line: For if you are to become a divine being you have to go out of those things which define you as a human being. Connecting with G-d means letting everything else go. doesn't sit well with you. On Shabbos I heard a dvar Torah on this subject and the conclusion was, and Hashem told Avrohom lech LECHA, as Rashi says, for your benefit! Doing this ends up being the best thing for you, materially and spiritually.

Wed, Nov 15 2006, 7:39 am

Chen - I agree with ur definitions of spirituality and G-dliness.

When I read the question the first answer that came to me is that spirituality does not equal G-dliness or Judaism. Like u said many religions are spiritual but that does not make them right or G-dly.

I have heard many times from non-frum people, I dont practice many torah laws but I am a good person, I treat others kindly / with respect and I believe in G-d - "I feel G-d in my heart" so u can say that is a spiritual feeling but its definitely not G-dly cos you're not doing what HE wants. G-d asks us to do more than just FEEL he wants us to ACT by the laws he gave us.

MACHSAHAVA. DIBBUR. MAASEH.

amother

Wed, Nov 15 2006, 8:03 am

cl wrote:

I have heard many times from non-frum people, I dont practice many torah laws but I am a good person, I treat others kindly / with respect and I believe in G-d - "I feel G-d in my heart" so u can say that is a spiritual feeling but its definitely not G-dly cos you're not doing what HE wants. G-d asks us to do more than just FEEL he wants us to ACT by the laws he gave us. [/b]

re"ACT by the laws he gave us"-
Every religion and subreligion has its own set of rules and specific interpretations . Also, non frum Jews feel that the Torah can be analyzed differently. We, who consider ourselves very observant Jews, don't follow all the Mitzvos literally either. There is a Passuk in the Torah that says not to heat a fire on Shabbos, so there is a group (I think in Africa) that considers themselves very Jewish, that does not eat warmed foods on Shabbos and does not use electricity or even candles. They feel we are analyzing the Torah erroneously and are transgressing the Torah's sacred prohibitions. They feel that all people that use elecricity or candles are Mechalel Shabbos and using a pick and choose mentality with the Torah .