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South Africa
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amother


 

Post Sun, Nov 05 2006, 10:18 pm
my husband and I are looking into moving to south africa. are any of you out there from south africa? do u know any south africans?
id love to hear more about thsi place im a little nervous bout this huge step.
yes we will be visitng it in a few months before makign anyhting final but id love to hear from rela life moms what its like.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Nov 05 2006, 10:26 pm
Are you moving there out of the blue or have you previously lived there? It is very dangerous in certain parts of South Africa and if you aren't familiar with the area I suggest you talk people before moving there.
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queen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 05 2006, 11:36 pm
It used to be a very regal country... unfortunately however the blacks have completely destroyed it. Standard of living 20-30 years ago ppl in America would do anything to have. Unfortunately today with the security the way it is- the country has basically been destroyed leaving not much good behind. Today people are wary to leave their homes at night and personal home security is extremely high. Check into this move WELL before taking the plunge.

(good luck)
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Emuna




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 12:03 am
A close friend living there tells me that EVERYONE knows someone who has been mugged/attacked.
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 1:12 am
Where in South Africa are you thinking of moving to?

I'm ex-Cape Town. I left there 25 years ago. I have visited a few times and still have family in Cape Town and Johannesburg.

yes, everyone knows someone who has been mugged, attacked, carjacked, murdered.

Yiddishkeit wise, Johannesburg is awesome. There is an eruv around the city, and shuls and shtibelach everywhere.

But, everyone lives behind barbed wire fences, or electric fences. Yu can't let your kids play outside on the street, law and order is crazy (or non existent).

My cousin was car jacked coming home from a shiur in Jhb. He was shot through his arm, body and leg. They lost him 3x on the operating table, and he has permanent damage. I asked his wife if they were going to find out who did it, and she said no-one bothers.

Yet, ask someone living there, and they'll tell you its a great lifestyle. You get maids and gardeners, etc. Its great.

But.... the cost of living is not too bad, but your south african rand does not convert very well to American dollars (vice versa, you're set!) and it is very expensive and a long flight to c ome back and visit family in the USA.

People are still emigrating from the country all the time.

What else do you want to know? Chabad in Jhb is awesome. There are Chabad Houses popping up, successfully, all over the country. Would yo ube going on shlichus? Do you have family there? Are you newly married?

PM me if you want to, or continue here.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 1:44 am
Oh Man!

It sounds like you scared her away ladies!!!

I heard that everyone there has a couple of maids, and for the Mothers our there, that sounds like heaven to me....

But, I guess you can't just stay in your house all the time...
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 3:14 am
my husband is from south africa and his parents told him NOT to make his life there, for anything.
yes, life is easy and plushy, you have maids to help you do everything in the house or to just do it for you. and yes, living is good. but for what price?
a friend of my brother in laws was killed right outside her own home a month ago. for what? her purse.
and there are fences (and barbed wires sometimes) around every house so as not to have even more burglaries, muggins, hijackings.

I am not sure why anyone would want to move there now. ppl we know from there are trying to move out of SA b/c life there is VERY uncertain.
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 3:41 am
I actually refused a shidduch for my dd based on the fact that the boy wanted to go back and live in South Africa.

I said, I have, with mesiras nefesh, raised my kids away from family and home, and there is no way I'm sending any child of mine back there.

Even though, Yiddishkeit wise its a great place, and for those who are there, they swear by it (those who can't/ won't leave).
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 4:09 am
Quote:
unfortunately however the blacks have completely destroyed it.


Does no one besides me find that statement offensive?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 4:20 am
Well, HR - is it true?
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 4:47 am
No. It is no more true than saying the Chardei population in Israel throws stones at people whose behaviour they dont' approve of. I've walked through the Charedi sections of Jerusalem many times in clothes that are less acceptable in that area (no stocings, sandals, sleeves slightly above the elbow) and have never had a problem. It is true that one woman approached another young girl (we were part of a group and the girl was dressed in pants) in what I thought was a very loving manner, to try and explain why the girls dress wasn't appropriate. She wasn't well received, but to me her manner was quite warm and friendly. I take my impressions of the Charedi population, of whom I'm not a member, as a whole. I am generally treated with respect, and I assume most Charedi are warm loving people who only wish to live their lives as they feel best.A segment of the population, in the case above, acts immorally and would throw stones or hiss or otherwise treat me in a negative fashion. I view them as aberrations.

In terms of Africa a segment of the Black African population is behaving in a highly immoral fashion, one that endangers, , many lives, including other blacks. )

That they may in many cases have a legitamate grudge against the present landowners is a different question. Their response is highly immoral.

I think racism is a severe problem that faces Orthodox Jewery; similar to many other problems we need to deal wtih as a collective. I know several black Jews and the problems they have faced among other Orthodox memebers. It is not enough to conquer racist and prejudicial thoughts within ourselves, though that is important, but I thinik we aslo must poiiint out the damage it does to us as a People, and work to end the problem.. I don't think racist are evil, I think many have learned these prejudices and can unlearn them. It just takes honesty and a willingness on the part of others to point out the errors in thinking....imho at the very least.

In any case anyone anticipating a move out from their current country, wherever, unless it is for purposes of kiruv should be m oving to Israel imho. But that's just how I feel.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 4:48 am
HindaRochel wrote:
Quote:
unfortunately however the blacks have completely destroyed it.


Does no one besides me find that statement offensive?


you have to understand how south african were brought up. in south africa it is just part of the culture that the blacks are lower than the whites. part of it has to do with the fact that during apartied the black population did not receive any education. but the white ppl were brought up in the fashion that blacks are lower than you and so it is not such a bad thing to "bad mouth" black ppl.

I am sure that you were brought up differently. I grew up in the states and the first few times that I heard my husband say things about black ppl I cringed, but then I began getting used to it. I wont talk like that about black ppl b/c I grew up that everyone is equal, but it is different there.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 4:55 am
Quote:
you have to understand how south african were brought up. in south africa it is just part of the culture that the blacks are lower than the whites. part of it has to do with the fact that during apartied the black population did not receive any education. but the white ppl were brought up in the fashion that blacks are


I do understand that Shabbatiscoming (what a great name), but I think it is an attitude we need to rid ourselves of. It is hard and I don't think we should do it cruellly, perhaps I could have asked my question more sensitively, but I think it is important to rid ourselves of prejudice and respond to it when it comes up in others.

I don't know how you would approach your dh on this issue, but perhaps that is one reason G-d intended you to be with him? We are suppose to be azer-kinegdo; from what I learned; for him if he is moving in the right direction but there to stop him if he is moving in the wrong direction.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 5:31 am
HindaRochel wrote:
Quote:
you have to understand how south african were brought up. in south africa it is just part of the culture that the blacks are lower than the whites. part of it has to do with the fact that during apartied the black population did not receive any education. but the white ppl were brought up in the fashion that blacks are


I do understand that Shabbatiscoming (what a great name), but I think it is an attitude we need to rid ourselves of. It is hard and I don't think we should do it cruellly, perhaps I could have asked my question more sensitively, but I think it is important to rid ourselves of prejudice and respond to it when it comes up in others.

I don't know how you would approach your dh on this issue, but perhaps that is one reason G-d intended you to be with him? We are suppose to be azer-kinegdo; from what I learned; for him if he is moving in the right direction but there to stop him if he is moving in the wrong direction.


I agree with you that the attitudes that blacks are less than whites should be rid of. hey, I did not grow up that way. in america, or at least in my parents home, if anyone said a bad word towards anyone other than the jews or white ppl, etc, there was heck to pay from my parents. they are the type to love all man kind, ALL man kind. so yes, with my husband, I do try to show him that talking about blacks in a certain way may not be the best. he knows and has become MUCH better. its also when you are not in a situation anymore, it is easier to not do it.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 5:56 am
I am South African. I don´t live there because I am on shlichus in another part of the world, but what a community! (I go back often to visit my parents)
Kashrus is fantastic and organized.There are many restaurants and kosher food easily accessible in any supermarket. The community is very warm and welcoming.
If you are Lubavitch, the Rebbe gave many brochos to south Africa and at the time when everyone was leaving counseled his chassidim not to leave becasue life would improve. It has. After Apartheid SA went through a transitional period where crime was rampant. I believe this is on the mend (not perfect, but where in the world is there no crime?). I myself see the difference in the country from a few years ago to now. much improved. The black community is also finally getting their well deserved education so as a result are becoming more civilized and educated.
Chabad has a large community and is very active. There is also a very large litvishe kehila, Ohr Sameach, Aish....you name it.
There is a variety of schools to chose from.
People who move there love it!!and from what I undesrtand, many young couples are choosing nowadays to stay in SA or are moving back.
(and as someone mentioned, the quality of life is unique.)
Hatzlacha in your decision.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 6:01 am
amother wrote:
I am South African. I don´t live there because I am on shlichus in another part of the world, but what a community! (I go back often to visit my parents)
Kashrus is fantastic and organized.There are many restaurants and kosher food easily accessible in any supermarket. The community is very warm and welcoming.
If you are Lubavitch, the Rebbe gave many brochos to south Africa and at the time when everyone was leaving counseled his chassidim not to leave becasue life would improve. It has. After Apartheid SA went through a transitional period where crime was rampant. I believe this is on the mend (not perfect, but where in the world is there no crime?). I myself see the difference in the country from a few years ago to now. much improved. The black community is also finally getting their well deserved education so as a result are becoming more civilized and educated.
Chabad has a large community and is very active. There is also a very large litvishe kehila, Ohr Sameach, Aish....you name it.
There is a variety of schools to chose from.
People who move there love it!!and from what I undesrtand, many young couples are choosing nowadays to stay in SA or are moving back.
(and as someone mentioned, the quality of life is unique.)
Hatzlacha in your decision.


its so intersting how everyone can see the same situation differently.

first of all, its intersting that you thought things were on the mend in SA in terms of crime and all that bad stuff. my in laws actually have noticed a rise in bad petty crime. as I said above, a mother of a friend of the family was gunned down in front of her front door for her purse (I am not sure that that happens everywhere)
yes, the jewish life is wonderful and so is life in general. it is an easy life. but for what cost?
and its intersting that you know many young couples moving back or staying. we know many young couples and parents as well, that have been and still are moving out of SA Smile so everyone has the info differently:)
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Mammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 9:28 am
amother wrote:

Kashrus is fantastic and organized.There are many restaurants and kosher food easily accessible in any supermarket. The community is very warm and welcoming.
If you are Lubavitch, the Rebbe gave many brochos to south Africa and at the time when everyone was leaving counseled his chassidim not to leave becasue life would improve. It has. After Apartheid SA went through a transitional period where crime was rampant. I believe this is on the mend (not perfect, but where in the world is there no crime?). I myself see the difference in the country from a few years ago to now. much improved. The black community is also finally getting their well deserved education so as a result are becoming more civilized and educated.
Chabad has a large community and is very active. There is also a very large litvishe kehila, Ohr Sameach, Aish....you name it.
There is a variety of schools to chose from.
People who move there love it!!and from what I undesrtand, many young couples are choosing nowadays to stay in SA or are moving back.
(and as someone mentioned, the quality of life is unique.)
Hatzlacha in your decision.


I completely echo this!!!! South Africa is an amazing place.
If you think about how during Apartheid, anyone who wasn't white was literally persecuted- not allowed into parks, not allowed to go to regular schools, only people with permits could leave the townships, and go to the city- and even so, some of them needed to be back in the township before curfew. Their lives were torn apart, because the men worked in the mines, and the wives and children were not allowed to go live with them, causing regular family life to become messed up and immoral.

Kids were killed, anyone who protested this was arrested... it goes on and on.

Then, the government was turned over to the oppressed. You would think that the tables would turn over 100%, and the black government would get back at their oppresors. Not so. They forgave anyone who came to reconcile. Yes, there were many blacks who could not forget what was done, and took it out on the people violently, but that is not what their leadership, or the general population felt.

The government took a fragmented, divided nation, and united it in the most amazing way. It is a process that takes time, and a process that we are still watching unfold.

I also see changes there for the better each time I go back. Crime IS going down, and keeps doing so. There is a lot that needs to be changed there, but no one knows it better then them.

In terms of safety, HASHEM PROTECTS US!!!!!! No more needs to be said on that matter.

In terms of kids playing in the streets, no, they can't, but how safe is it in Brooklyn? In South Africa, everyone has a large yard surrounded by a fence where the kids could play more free and open then anyone in any city.

Hundreds of restauraunts, your choice of shul/ education, classes for adults, I could go on and on.......

Where in SA are you looking into? Have you been there? If you have the opportunity, go and check it out. Feel for yourself if you think it is a place where you could live.

Good luck with the decision!
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 9:41 am
Well, with all the pluses, and the minuses, and the racism, I have to tell you that one of the main reasons I left South Africa was so that I wouldn't have to raise my children in a racist country. While I agree that the Orthodox Community does have a negative attitude towards people with skins of different colors than ours, usually it has been with reason.

It is extremely difficult when a whole race is painted with the same brush due to a certain number of individuals in that group, but in South Africa the group that have created damage, and the group that don't want to put in the effort to take advantage of the offers of improvement that are being offered to them, are very large, and, quite honestly, I don't see or hear of people with white skins car jacking and shooting people for NOTHING, or even to get their car.

The law and disorder in the country has been created by what those people have done. Ok, not every one, but a LARGE group.

As far as safety, etc, the country WAS in better shape before under Apartheid, however, I most certanily did NOT approve of the way the Blacks were treated (and yes, as a whole) in the country. Why it had to deteriorate to the degree it has, is beyond me. I'm sure with some thought and planning it could have been minimized.

If I could eat out in a different restaurant 2x every day of the year, I would still not move back there.

If their schools were the best in the WORLD, I would still not move back there.

If the yards there were 10x the size of the ones here, I still would not move back there.

And just for the record, Brooklyn is not the only place where a Jew can live in the United States, and Brooklyn is an AREA of a city, whereas South Africa is the whole country.

I certainly believe the OP has got both sides of the story here, and can make up their own minds now. Good luck with whatever you choose.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 9:52 am
op here:

I am going on shlichus, and my inlaws live there. does that change things

u have definitly given me all sides of teh spectrum.....
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Mammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 06 2006, 10:02 am
Going on Shlichus, you have The Rebbes brachas!
Ask your husband to find for you the letters that The Rebbe wrote to South Africans. They are incredible, prophetic in a way in which we see now, and inspiring.

Have you been there?
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