And what's the halacha here?

sarahd

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 4:20 pm

What would you do if you made a brocha on a piece of milk chocolate and then realized that you're still fleishig?

shalhevet

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 4:28 pm

Did you have anything parve which you might have had in mind?

If not I think you taste the tiniest bit, because waiting (not at the same meal) is d'rabanan and a brocho levatala is midoraisa.

Ribbie Danzinger

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 4:29 pm

Immediately say, "Baruch shem kevod malchuto leolam va'ed" (which should be said after making a bracha levatala, a redundant bracha) and try not to make the same mistake in the future.

I don't know whether eating or drinking something else instead of the chocolate would be good, unless you had the intention of eating/drinking it before you made the bracha.

Did you get a psak?

mali

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 4:30 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

say lamdeini chukecha, or boruch shem.

Lamdeini Chukecha is only if you're halfway through the Bracha, in which case you can turn it into a Passuk in Tehillim.

sarahd

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 4:37 pm

Actually, this was the halacha taught in shul this Shabbos (someone teaches a halacha after davening, so they can say kaddish derabbanan.) Mummy was right Salut

If you had nothing pareve in mind, you have to eat a bit of the milchig item. I was really surprised to hear this halacha; it was so counterintuitive to me.

Ribbie Danzinger

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 4:41 pm

mali wrote:

Quote:

Lamdeini Chukecha is only if you're halfway through the Bracha, in which case you can turn it into a Passuk in Tehillim.

If you have said "baruch ata Hashem" you can add "lamdeini chukecha" to complete the pasuk in Tehillim, then it isn't considered taking Hashem's Name in vain.

If you have said, "baruch ata Hashem Elokei..." then you should complete the pasuk, "baruch ata Hashem Elokei Yisrael avinu, mei'olam ve'ad olam". But then, you should also say "baruch shem kevod..." because you changed what you were going to say in the middle.

If you went any further in the bracha, and said "Elokeinu" then you have taken Hashem's Name in vain and you should say baruch shem, as I said in my previous post.

TzenaRena

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 5:02 pm

sarahd wrote:

Actually, this was the halacha taught in shul this Shabbos (someone teaches a halacha after davening, so they can say kaddish derabbanan.) Mummy was right Salut

If you had nothing pareve in mind, you have to eat a bit of the milchig item. I was really surprised to hear this halacha; it was so counterintuitive to me.

are you sure this is a universally accepted psak? I'd like to hear the source please.

NotInNJMommy

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 9:54 pm

I've heard this is a possible psak...bc if it's been over "1 hour" (d'oraisa) then the idea is that it's better to have the bit of milchig in less than the regular time than to make a brachah levatala (which is more severe).

The source I read this in (I think R. Forst's book) wrote this in such a way that I don't think it is the most common psak, albeit acceptable if from an authority.

TzenaRena

Sun, Nov 12 2006, 10:19 pm

Quote:

The source I read this in (I think R. Forst's book) wrote this in such a way that I don't think it is the most common psak, albeit acceptable if from an authority

. and what is the source in halacha that Rabbi Forst is basing his psak on? Surprised

What is Rabbi Forst's background? what is the name of his book?

If you can change it from a brocho l'vatala to not, by saying the above pesukim, then why would there be a question?

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

don't know whether eating or drinking something else instead of the chocolate would be good, unless you had the intention of eating/drinking it before you made the bracha.

even in an unusual situation like this?

TzenaRena

Mon, Nov 13 2006, 12:32 am

My husband's reaction about the chocolate: I wouldn't eat it.

He told me that a similar halacha was discussed by a Rosh Yeshivah of his - with phenomenol b'kiyus in halacha and all fields of Torah-, and he taught that you should substitute a different food, although you did not have it in mind, it's a situation of b'dieved, and one should try to "save" the brocho this way.

In this case, it may have been that someone made a bracha on matza, and then someone came and grabbed it away, before he could eat it. The din would be to substitute something else EVEN though he didn't have THAT item in mind.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 13 2006, 2:52 am

The source from Rav Forst's book: "Pischei Halacha:The Laws of Brachos" (He has haskomos there from Rav Pam, Rav Shwab, Rav Moshe Halberstam and Rav Moshe Stern amongst others)

Quote:

Poskim disagree as to one who recited a bracha on milk within 6 hours of eating meat should taste the milk to avoid a bracha levatala. If an hour has transpired since the eating of meat, the safest course is to drink a minute amount of milk and thereby avoid a bracha levatala.

Sources: Sdei Chemed, Daas Torah, Beer Moshe,Ychave Daas

BTW, saying Baruch Shem after the bracha levatala does not cancel the bracha levatala. Also, if you ate poultry and not beef it will always be middrobonon.

613

Mon, Nov 13 2006, 12:25 pm

Not eating milk after meat is a MINHAG D'rabbonon. The issur d'rabbanon is eating meat and milk together at the same seudah.

Saying a Bracha L'vatala is being ovair on one of the Aseres HaDibros (according to some)!

Motek

Tue, Nov 14 2006, 11:18 am

mummyof6 wrote:

BTW, saying Baruch Shem after the bracha levatala does not cancel the bracha levatala.

ever? or in this case?

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 14 2006, 2:16 pm

Motek wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

BTW, saying Baruch Shem after the bracha levatala does not cancel the bracha levatala.

ever? or in this case?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. When you say Baruch Shem ... you do the best you can to rectify the situation. You said a bracha levatala, so you now say that you want Hashem's name to be glorified. But you still said the bracha l'vatala. If you say Baruch Ata Hashem and finish Lamdeini Chukecha, then you did not say a BL, but said a pasuk.

Incidentally all corrective action must be made toch kdei dibbur (the time that it takes to say Shalom Aleicha Rabbi).

sarahd

Tue, Nov 14 2006, 3:23 pm

...umori"

The person who said the halacha is one of the poskim in the community, so I imagine he knows what he's talking about. I could ask him for sources, but I see that mummy already gave some.

When you think about the issurim involved, and look past your gut reaction, the halacha is not so surprising.

Motek

Fri, Nov 17 2006, 10:42 am

sarahd wrote:

If you had nothing pareve in mind, you have to eat a bit of the milchig item.

When I say a bracha in my kitchen, I include everything in my kitchen which has that bracha. This is even if I don't have that kavana every single time I say a bracha.

So in your scenario, wouldn't I take anything shehakol like a glass of juice (not water because you don't say shehakol on water unless you're thirsty)?

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 18 2006, 12:38 pm

Motek wrote:

sarahd wrote:

If you had nothing pareve in mind, you have to eat a bit of the milchig item.

And if you weren't at home?

Motek

Sat, Nov 18 2006, 8:52 pm

Depends where I was. If I was on a chol ha'moed trip, then my bracha would include all the food I had along with me.

If I was in someone else's home, I suppose I would have to have kavana that my shehakol includes all shehakol foods/drinks.

Motek

Sat, Nov 18 2006, 8:53 pm

Depends where I was. If I was on a chol ha'moed trip, then my bracha would include all the food I had along with me.