does the MMR cause autism?

seeker

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:03 pm

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

I don't know. But the idea that it's even a possibility is enough for me to skip it. I'm far less concerned about my kids getting measles, mumps, or rubella than I am about them chas v'shalom becoming autistic.

I am concerned about all vaccines in general, not just MMR. They all have risks. I don't care what the pediatricians or the CDC say. I don't trust scientific studies funded by those who have an interest in selling the drugs.

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

In my parents' generation those diseases were like Chicken Pox. People got them and lived to tell. I don't know anyone who has had those diseases lately, let alone died of those diseases, but I do know plenty of kids with autism. You may disagree with my logic. I don't care. But your sarcasm and nastiness is really unwarranted!

Agreed, that the sarcasm is unwarranted. Disagree that these diseases aren't around today. My brother had measles when I was in college; I was the one to take care of him - as my parents were 'busy'. Measles is around today, I've heard of mumps cases as well.

Yes, I do hear in the news of a couple cases here and there every few years. But considering the whole population, I think I can say it's extremely rare. And also not fatal in otherwise healthy individuals who have good nutrition and live in sanitary conditions.

Here and there? Way more often as of late, due to ppl who choose not to vaccinate. And maybe it's rare for it to be fatal (although not unheard of) there are plenty of unfortunate boys and men who's little swimmers were burned by the mumps epidemic we had a few years back. I guess they don't count. Oh, and Patient Zero of that mumps epidemic? A little boy who came to camp from Europe, where they are more lax about vaccinating. He hadn't gotten the vaccine, and thanks to his mother, future generations have been destroyed.

Do you actually know people whose "little swimmers" were burned out by mumps? It is a concern, but I was under the impression that it's a highly uncommon complication.

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:07 pm

seeker wrote:

amother wrote:

1. I'm not sure what you consider "extremely rare" but the cases number in the tens in most outbreaks that make the news.
2. As rare as it's been in the past, it is getting less rare every year. It correlates very well with the decrease in vaccinations. You can say correlation doesn't prove causation, but the highest rates of disease are appearing in areas with the lowest rates of vaccination. It's pretty compelling evidence.
3. You add your own caveat that's it's not often fatal IN OTHERWISE HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS. What about all the people in your community or area who are not in perfect health? Bringing back these diseases exposes them to unnecessary risk. Vaccination is not 100% effective or even possible for everyone, so the program relies on mass cooperation to keep the diseases under control for everyone's sake.

1. 10 is not an epidemic. 10 people getting sick from something per year, yes that is rare in my book.
2. I keep hearing that, but at the same time the majority infected always seem to be those vaccinated, not those unvaccinated.
3. I don't buy into heard immunity. And even if I did, I won't risk my own children's health for somebody else's. Which is exactly what I would feel I was doing if I gave my kids MMR vaccine.

EmesOrNT

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:15 pm

seeker wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

tikva18 wrote:

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

Do you actually know people whose "little swimmers" were burned out by mumps? It is a concern, but I was under the impression that it's a highly uncommon complication.

It's just as common as a grown man becoming sterile from getting the chicken pox. No, I do not know any sterile men. But I do trust science.

tikva18

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 12:13 am

spring13 wrote:

craisin wrote:

my pediatrician will not give the MMR before the child is at lleast somewhere between 18-24 months. he claims that's the time when autism shows up. hewants parents to get a clear pic of their kid before the shot.
& btw, I used to work in the field of special ed...(early childhood)I taught many kids that had autism, & some of the parents swear that it was a direct result of the vaccine.

how did they claim to know this?

If I were to take a guess it would be because their kid had a severe reaction right after the vaccine - like high fever, nonstop high pitched screaming, and then shortly thereafter their kids' behavior/speech regressed.

I had a 'in your face' happy child, who after vaccinating him, quit making eye contact, quit speaking so much, and quit interacting so much. He's since been diagnosed with SID and an auditory processing disorder. I can't say 100% that my baby is this way today because of the vaccines he recieved (I think it was the dtp), but I cna't rule it out either. What I do know is he used to love to make eye contact and enjoyed interacting and it just kind of disappeared.

Seraph

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 12:44 am

amother wrote:

fatality is not the only concern with these diseases. dont one or more also have possible fertility issues later on as a side affect?

I dont think that the mmr CAUSES autism, or we would see fewer cases, as the number of children being vaccinated has decreased in recent years. I DO think that perhaps something in the shot reacts with something in a childs body which exacerbates the symptoms of autism. keep in mind, causation and correlation are NOT the same thing.

There actually are many theories of what causes autism, among them lead poisoning, like in items bought in China, pesticides, chemicals in foods, etc... So the fact that autism is on the rise could be because of all these other reasons, and not necessarily connected to the vaccine. In fact, it could be that if vaccines hadn't been cut back, the rate of autism would have risen even higher.

jelly belly

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 1:37 am

The only connection between the mmr (or any vaccine) and autism are the studies concluding that there is no connection. I mentioned on the other thread- studies actually demonstrated that practitioners have been able to guess which infants will be diagnosed with autism eventually, with good accuracy. We're talking many months before these babies get the mmr. IME, many parents are not very attuned to the early signs of autism, so they often don't recognized it until they are really hit in the face at 18 months or more of age. In hindsight, some will say there were early signs, but many don't. Still, professionals who specialize in diagnosing and treating ASD cam pick up on these warning signs much, much earlier. Earlier than the mmr is given.

Any number of factors may be contributing to rising numbers of diagnosed autism spectrum disorders. To pick the mmr and refuse to vaccinate for that reason is an illogical fear. It is actually one of the only things backed by evidence to NOT cause autism. So to put people at risk for any of those diseases just seems irresponsible to me.

gryp

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 10:00 am

http://www.merck.com/product/u.....I.pdf

OP, that's the package insert for the MMR (the one used most commonly here, I don't know where you live though). You can see the side effects for yourself.
(Psssst, orchitis is a side effect of the mumps component.)

Ear infections are also a side effect from the MMR. Many children with autism have a history of ear infections and antibiotic use. Dr Joan Fallon theorized that the neurotoxin ammonia used for the antibiotic Augmentin (commonly used when ear infections re-occur) could have tipped the scales for many children.

Another factor may be overall immune system weakness. The relationship between the immune system and neurological system has been researched for over 10 years now, and although we've found out that there is a close relationship (from the different transmitters in the body relating to each other), nothing much more has been found out.

Hope that helps.

sim

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 11:46 am

Nobody knows what causes autism. There are various theories floating around, but none of them have as yet stood the test of exhaustive research. If giving your child the MMR makes you nervous, and you would like to delay it or not give it at all, that is your right as a parent, HOWEVER make sure that you educate yourself as to the risks and potential issues related to delaying or withholding this vaccination or any vaccination. This should not be an emotional or knee-jerk decision; it involves your precious children and it behooves you to look at both sides of the issue using the most reliable sources. I would start with your pediatrician, whom I'm assuming you trust. What you decide to do ultimately is up to you and I would respect that, but do this in the most responsible way possible and be aware of the pitfalls on both sides.

Barbara

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 12:10 pm

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

But here's the thing. You don't know anyone who has had the diseases, so its easy to say "I won't immunize, and my child is likely to be protected by herd immunity" IOW, to depend upon others having the vaccine to protect your child.

The polio vaccine was introduced around 1955. In 1954, there were 18,308 cases of paralytic polio, and 20,168 of nonparalytic polio in the US. By 1961, it was 988 / 324. Last year, there were none. So its easy not to vaccinate with the risks so low. But if everyone stopped vaccinating, and the numbers were the same as 1954, it would not be as easy.

Its estimated that pertussis affects 48.5 million people yearly, resulting in nearly 295,000 deaths, although most healthy older children do survive. As an aside, DH had it as a child, and says that it was h*ll on earth. Not quite as easy.

In 2008, nearly 164,000 people died of measles, mostly children under 5 in developing countries. Better health care (even apart from vaccines) could greatly reduce that figure, though.

My only point is that these are not harmless little diseases.

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 2:49 pm

From Canadian News:
In 2002, measles were declared eradicated from North America, but it has made a comeback in Quebec, where the number of cases has grown to 750 in the past few months (July-November 2011).
Measles is a respiratory infection that begins much like a cold, but includes a red rash on the body. There can be more serious complications leading to hospitalization. In developed countries, including Canada, death is estimated to occur once in 3,000 cases.

From Wiki:
In immunocompromised patients (e.g. people with AIDS) the fatality rate is approximately 30%
On May 24, 2011 the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that the United States has had 118 measles cases so far this year. The 118 cases were reported by 23 states and New York City between Jan 1 and May 20. Of the 118 cases,105 (89%) of the patients had not been vaccinated.

__________________
Whether or not you will get sick depends on Hashem, but it up to you to protect yourself as best you can. If you believe that you will prevent Autism in your child by withholding the vaccinations, I pray to G-d that you should never have a child who is sick or CV"S dies from an easily preventable childhood infection. Just keep in mind that Hashem requires of us to take medication when needed, to go to the doctor as needed, etc. No matter what, He decides what does and does not harm you. You have to do what you can, though.

spring13

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 7:24 pm

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

emesornt wrote:

amother wrote:

Is there still a belief that the MMR shot can cause autism chas vshalom? Can you share your thoughts? thanks so much!

So lets see, amother. You weighed the pros and cons, and decided that the possible, unlikely, risk of autism is far worse than a probable fatal disease. You're the mother of the year.

If anyone has read the All of a Kind Family books, the "infantile paralysis" that Lena nearly dies from in More All of a Kind Family is polio - infantile paralysis is an old term for it. My great-grandmother limped all her life after contracting polio as a child. So when people claim "no one dies from those diseases anymore!" I want to scream. People aren't getting sick and having bad effects from them because people rarely get them anymore - which is a DIRECT RESULT of vaccination. I'm not sure why people don't seem to get that. If people stop vaccinating, they'll come back.

seeker

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 9:25 pm

amother wrote:

seeker wrote:

amother wrote:

1. I just want to clarify, I said TENS, not teens, and in EACH outbreak. That is not ten per year. I don't have exact numbers (though someone posted a statistic from Canada?) but what I mean is if you have 40 from Jerusalem and 60 from Beit Shemesh and 80 in London and 20 in Monsey and 30 in Lakewood - That's not "extremely rare."

2. Again, I question your info source, because I have read the contrary.

3. OK, we'll make sure to thank you when our immunosuppressed kids with cancer or chronic illness die of infection because you don't buy into herd immunity.

nylon

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 9:37 pm

I actually did live through a measles outbreak with an unvaccinated baby. (2007, London. My dd was too young for her MMR.) B"H we did not live in Hackney which had the most cases, but there were cases in my borough too. Children were hospitalized. I let out a sigh of relief when dd was 13 months and I could get her MMR.

Also, my DH actually had the measles (and rubella)--measles vaccination was available in England when he was born, but uptake was only 50% and he didn't get it. Rubella was only for girls over 14. So boys like my DH acted as a reservoir of infection for all the pregnant women who had not seroconverted.

HindaRochel

Thu, Dec 15 2011, 12:51 am

seeker wrote:

amother wrote:

seeker wrote:

amother wrote:

1.In 2008 there were 164,000 measles deaths worldwide.
The vector for transmission of the illness is usually a child who was not vaccinated.
2. An unvaccination population is more vulnerable, however vaccinated are not fully immune. Immunity rates vary among the different illness, some are as high as 90% some 50%, but generally those who are vaccinated are both less likely to get the illness and suffer less if they do. In overall terms of numbers however, a particular population may have more vaccinated in it then unvaccinated because the population is mostly vaccinated. HOWEVER, if in a population of 100 exposed to a disease, 95 are vaccinated, and 5 are not, then it is likely that the majority of unvaccinated will have the disease, not so among the vaccinated even though there may be more people who were vaccinated who are ill.

Unvaccinated put those who are vaccinated at risk.
3. For something that is not shown to be harmful for the average child, and most assuredly does not cause autism.

More reading, not that I really expect anyone whose mind is made up to actually pay attention to science.
http://pediatrics.about.com/od.....k.htm

CrunchyNotFlakey

Thu, Dec 15 2011, 8:36 am

http://www.sciencebasedmedicin.....ions/

The whole site has lots of great information. They are honest about what we know, what we don't know, how we know-- and then they discuss how to apply that knowledge. Not everyone on the site agrees. There is also a nice comment section where you can see some of the bizarre immunology "theories" brought up and refuted.

Also, they are not selling you an "alternative" by way of juice or tea or vitamins....special air or water....or even books. Just sharing info.

Everyone who disagrees with me is not "bad". When dangerously wrong meets profit motive, that's when I start to be less charitable in my assessment.

MMR does not cause autism, but the money of families with ASD does cause shady characters to exploit those affected.

(edited for clarity)