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What secular values/ideas have crept into our minds?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 11:50 am
There's an interesting article by a BT called, "Replacing Secular Values with Torah Values" in which the author writes about her struggle to adjust her thinking to Torah values.

Quote:
When I first came to Israel, about three and a half years ago, I had to undergo a similar change in mindset. I was already technically religious—I kept Shabbat and kashrut and wore mostly modest clothes—but my values and beliefs were still half-and-half. It took hearing a real Torah perspective on certain issues (mostly relating to Eretz Israel and Jewish morality) to shake me up and help me see that while my behavior had begun changing to be in line with Torah, my thinking still had a ways to go. I resolved to work to change my thinking as well as my behavior, until both would be according to Torah.

I found this second round of changes to be more challenging than the first. After all, in order to keep Shabbat, you just have to not do work. It might be difficult or frustrating, but in the end, it’s a simple physical act. Even when I felt like turning on my computer on a Saturday morning, I could just force myself not to. When I found myself thinking something that clearly came from my old perspective and was not in line with Torah values, I couldn’t force a change. I had to be patient and spend a lot of time learning and growing before those thoughts would be replaced by something better.
http://www.beyondbt.com/?p=554


This got me thinking about what secular values and ideas have crept into the minds of FFB's.

I'll start with one - I think that feminist ideas have permeated the frum world.

Any others?
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shayna82




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:00 pm
vegetarians- other than those whose bodies really cant handle meat. seems like frum girls get it from college.
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Sparkle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:03 pm
1. Thin is beautiful

2. Life should be easy and perfect.

3. When anything is wrong - therapy is the answer.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:08 pm
What in France we call "left wing values": as shayna said vegetarians, but also misused tolerance, a pity for the Palestinians "because they are poor", feminism, therapy...

I don't really see the thin is beautiful value among the frum, but it definitely starts among the young generation of the secular. Apart from them, many Jews have a reject for this fashion because "it reminds of the holocaust" and "it isn't normal/womanly".
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:13 pm
adding


In some communities there is also a problem of wanting to be s-xy (hot chanis), I don't think I have met this problem here apart from of course among the secular, but I haven't tried to locate them either...

There seem to be, acording to posts on Imamother, a problem of people thinking trashy is s*xy, which is IMHO non jewish or at least desensitized (sp?) to what is really attractive.
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 12:24 pm
working women.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 16 2006, 11:49 pm
shayna82 wrote:
vegetarians- other than those whose bodies really cant handle meat. seems like frum girls get it from college.


interesting. I became a vegetarian in seminary b/c I was grossed out at the fleishig. nothing to do with college. so I dont know if I agree with you on this one.......
and I have a friend who became vegetarian in elementary school.............
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 12:01 am
mali wrote:
working women.


Actually, I think that's a frum value that's crept into the secular world! How else are kollel families supposed to survive...on the stipend? No, the women always worked to support the family so the men could learn. And in Israel, many women work because they HAVE to...frum or not.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 12:13 am
I became a vegetarian in college and hung onto it for three years; when I became pregnant. I couldn't tolerate any food and had a tivah for meat. Had to do a hatarat nedarim.

I play with going back to it.

pity the ARAB Palestinians (I'm reading a book now, written by the mother of Hannah Senesh who refers to Jews living in Israel as Palestinians, as in the Palestinian parachuters who went into Nazi controlled lands to help rescue Jews.)
Refering to the above as Palestinians. (ugh, ugh, ugh but everyone does and I don't really have a good solution except by adding ARAB to it.)

I don't find either feminism,depending on how it is expressed, or therapy to be the problem. It all depends on how it is expressed.

Working moms. Work as the key to one's self-satisfaction. I am not negating the pleasure of doing something that one loves and some do need to work and should be supported, but I think we need to help those who don't want to work but need to in order to put food on the table, so that they don't need to work anymore, or can work from home.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 1:26 am
OMG, just start scrolling down the imamother forum and you'll find what's important to frum women, things that were never Jewish values:

Secular education Exploding anger

Money/ Materialism

Simchas with the aim of impressing the neighbours and being talked about for months (oy vey if someone else used the same colour napkins). People used to make simchas to make the choson and kalla have a wonderful day and give the poor people of the town a nice meal.

Nationalism - Jewish people davenned for two thousand years to have the zechus to even die in Eretz Yisroel. Now people say - we know we could go, but it's very nice here thanks and the US/Europe/whatever is just a great place to live.

Fashions

ok, I'll stop there for the moment
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 2:01 am
Those are great ones Mof6
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 7:06 am
Marion wrote:
No, the women always worked to support the family so the men could learn.


Those few women whose husbands learned fulltime! But there are enough threads on Kollel, so on to other things!

I don't think that women working is a secular value. The secular value is that what I do defines me and gives me value. This applies to men and women. A career?! What's that? Used to be, one worked to earn money. Now, work is for status, fulfillment.

Sparkle - good ones!

I'll add: moral relativism. When frum Jews say "who am I to judge," a phrase not used every other sentence, as far as I can remember, twenty years ago, I think it's because of the infiltration of secular humanism into our world.
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MommyLuv




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 7:26 am
Motek wrote:
Marion wrote:
No, the women always worked to support the family so the men could learn.


Those few women whose husbands learned fulltime! But there are enough threads on Kollel, so on to other things!

I don't think that women working is a secular value. The secular value is that what I do defines me and gives me value. This applies to men and women. A career?! What's that? Used to be, one worked to earn money. Now, work is for status, fulfillment.

Sparkle - good ones!

I'll add: moral relativism. When frum Jews say "who am I to judge," a phrase not used every other sentence, as far as I can remember, twenty years ago, I think it's because of the infiltration of secular humanism into our world.


Al Tadin Es Chavercha came way before these terms were coined. I don't see humanism as an evil thing, within reason.
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 8:00 am
Quote:
Nationalism - Jewish people davenned for two thousand years to have the zechus to even die in Eretz Yisroel. Now people say - we know we could go, but it's very nice here thanks and the US/Europe/whatever is just a great place to live.

I think that's called Galus.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 8:05 am
MommyLuv wrote:
Al Tadin Es Chavercha came way before these terms were coined. I don't see humanism as an evil thing, within reason.


Not judging one's fellow has to do with seeing someone do something wrong, halachically, and there are specific guidelines to follow depending on whether the person is known to be pious or an average mitzva-observant Jew, or not mitzva observant.

The phrase "who am I to judge" is commonly used with NO KNOWLEDGE of the halachos involved and in situations where there is no inyan to be dan l'chaf zechus.
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shoy18




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 8:06 am
I would have to say money! These days its all about having fancy clothes and a nice car. You can even buy your way into yeshivas these days!!
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JRKmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 8:53 am
In the past, I think many Jews supported left-wing causes and ideas, because of a superficial similarity to Jewish values and a certain degree of self-interest. [Eg. concern for the poor and giving tzedakah is a Jewish value, Jews in Russia had good reason to hate the Czar so the Bolsheviks may have seemed attractive, and Jews in America often worked in the garment trade and lived in slums, so unions and tenant protection were attractive.]

These days, I actually see the same thing happening with right-wing causes and ideas - again, because of a superficial similarity to Jewish values and a certain degree of self-interest. After being stung by left-wing Israel-bashers and moral relativists, the moral declarations and strong support for Israel on the right seem downright seductive. It can be difficult to remind ourselves not to get seduced a second time, though, and to remember that, beneath the surface, the ideas may not be coming from true Torah sources.

Along the same lines, I think we need to guard against backlash thinking. For example, explaining why a certain feminist idea may not be in accordance with Jewish thought is one thing; rejecting anything that a particular frum Jew says by simply labelling the person as a "feminist" is another.

Denominational divisions and isolation: While various movements have always arisen, the strict division among Jews into denominations is a more recent phenomenon, that seems to reflect the Xtian denominations. Given the fact that there's no love lost between their various denominations (eg. wars between Catholics and Protestants), this seems to be as far from the ideal of ahavas yisroel as you can get. And again, you have the backlash effect - if most of the community moves farther from frumkeit, the remaining frum Jews may close ranks.

Speaking of isolation - at one point, I stumbled upon some conservative Xtian sites, and read about these communities of women in long dresses, no casual dating, no public school education, no TV or immoral influences...On one hand, you can say that parts of their religion are influenced by ours, but on the other hand, it did make me wonder how much of what we see as characteristic of certain charedi communities really is unique to them.
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Emuna




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 17 2006, 9:04 am
Just to add, I was add a Chabad House mommy-and-me the other day where we are basically the "examples" for the secular Jewish women there. Well, as the "frum" women started walking in I found myself actually getting embarrassed for US! (The opposite of what should have been happening.) The secular women were looking relatively tznius in their basic weekday clothes, whereas the "frum" women all looked like movie stars walking in, with the blow-up bras, skin tight tops, super bright colors, and heavy make-up. What are we all about? I could have learned more about tznius talking to the secular women than to the so-called shluchas. It's truly embarrassing representing myself as one of them.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 18 2006, 10:34 am
GR wrote:
Quote:
Nationalism - Jewish people davenned for two thousand years to have the zechus to even die in Eretz Yisroel. Now people say - we know we could go, but it's very nice here thanks and the US/Europe/whatever is just a great place to live.

I think that's called Galus.


I don't think so at all.
I think it's called forgetting we're in galus.
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shayna82




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Nov 18 2006, 3:05 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
shayna82 wrote:
vegetarians- other than those whose bodies really cant handle meat. seems like frum girls get it from college.


interesting. I became a vegetarian in seminary b/c I was grossed out at the fleishig. nothing to do with college. so I dont know if I agree with you on this one.......
and I have a friend who became vegetarian in elementary school.............


when I said college, I did mean seminary to. It seems it happens to a number of girls when they go away from home. I also know someone who became a vegetarian in grade school. there are always exceptions.
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