 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Motek
|
 Tue, Nov 21 2006, 11:05 am
sorry carrot, I don't understand what you mean
I ran your comments by my husband and his reaction was: ?! that's the entire Oral Torah! (which is what I had posted)
and this:
| Quote: | | Halacha, the way it is written and explained today, is definitely a product of the Western world. Did you really think Judaism exists in a total vacuum? |
sounds exceedingly peculiar
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
|
carrot
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 3:49 pm
When we are learning it we use categories to help us make sense of it. We are Western people and that's how we think. But the Gemara is actually written in a very circular, round-about way with different things written in different places, things that start out one way and end up completely the opposite, reasoning that many people nowadays would not think is very logical, specific instance standing for entire categories, etc. it is NOT organized according to categories at all.
my husband just told me that the gemara did not used to be organized the way it is today. After it was developed it was organized to go according to the order of the day. So it used to be even MORE "non-linear."
Many of the things that we have now that ARE more linear/logical/categorical were very influenced by surrounding culture. The Concordance was - I forget if it was written by a priest or by a Jew in order to debate with a priest?
what sounds extremely peculiar?
and I ask you again, do you really think that Judaism exists in a total vacuum?
have more to say and would like to reread but have to goo.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Motek
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 4:41 pm
Although the Gemara goes from topic to topic in the way you describe, it and Mishnayos are, at the same time, well-ordered. For example: four categories of shomrim, 39 forms of melacha, etc.
"turn it and turn it for everything is in it" - everything comes from Torah
| carrot wrote: | | what sounds extremely peculiar? |
| carrot wrote: | | Halacha, the way it is written and explained today, is definitely a product of the Western world. |
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Motek
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 4:43 pm
other secular values that some of us embrace:
making decisions based on "whatever makes you happy" - happiness seen as THE goal
ease, saving miliseconds of time, impatience waiting seconds for something to load, etc. and making decisions based on whether it's easy/hard, wanting short cuts to a happy marriage, to raising children, not interested in the longterm consequences
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
amother
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 5:08 pm
| Motek wrote: | other secular values that some of us embrace:
making decisions based on "whatever makes you happy" - happiness seen as THE goal
ease, saving miliseconds of time, impatience waiting seconds for something to load, etc. and making decisions based on whether it's easy/hard, wanting short cuts to a happy marriage, to raising children, not interested in the longterm consequences |
Motek, your posts usually sound like they're coming from a "Mrs. Perfect", who can't understand the frailties of the average human being, with the Yetzer Hara fighting valiantly. Are you as perfect as you seem? Do you ever do any Aveiros? This is meant seriously. I wish I were more like you and I try to be. But while I try to climb higher, despite the best of intentions, I realize I'm not perfect and probably never will be. But, thanks for being a role model others can aspire to.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
carrot
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 6:10 pm
| Motek wrote: | Although the Gemara goes from topic to topic in the way you describe, it and Mishnayos are, at the same time, well-ordered. For example: four categories of shomrim, 39 forms of melacha, etc.
|
Motek, of course you can find categories in Mishna. But you still can't deny that the way that Sifrei Halacha are written and also other kinds of Rabbinic literature is affected by the surrounding times and culture. (What kind of scholarship came out of Spain? Germany? etc.) I don't believe in categorizing absolutely, and I certainly don't think that Mishna and Gemara have no structure that is intelligible to the modern eye. Of course that is ridiculous. All human culture overlaps in some way, and we are still closer to the culture of the Tannaim and Amoraim than we are to the culture of China or Bairan.
And anyway HOLD IT:::::: I am really very ignorant about the timeline of history, but please remind me where do the Mishna and Gemara fall in in terms of Greek and Roman culture?????? Perhaps you are proving my point?
While I am on this train of thought, why is the Gemara written in Aramaic again??? (which my old Syrian hair-stylist understands better than me?)
The way we learn and teach Torah is also affected by the surrounding culture. When you talk to babies, do you point to objects? Do you point to Torah objects (Mezuza! Rebbe! Torah!) Well in Eastern cultures they generally do not. They focus on pointing out verbs and relationships. Oh no we are teaching our children Western culture!
Also will you please answer the rest of my post?
| Quote: | | "turn it and turn it for everything is in it" - everything comes from Torah |
I don't understand what you mean with that quote?
| Quote: | | carrot wrote: | | what sounds extremely peculiar? |
| carrot wrote: | | Halacha, the way it is written and explained today, is definitely a product of the Western world. | |
Do you think if we lived in ancient India our books would read exactly the same way? I doubt it very much.
All our talk about the special marriage relationship, the beauty of Mikva, etc. would not fly to well in cultures where romance was not an expected part of life, it was normal to marry more than one wife, and for the wife to be much lower status than the husband.
I can think of many other examples. I am waiting for you to explain how it can possibly be that Judaism develops in a vacuum. That is incomprehensible to me. Nothing develops in a vacuum.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Motek
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 6:53 pm
| amother wrote: | | Motek, your posts usually sound like they're coming from a "Mrs. Perfect", who can't understand the frailties of the average human being, with the Yetzer Hara fighting valiantly. Are you as perfect as you seem? Do you ever do any Aveiros? This is meant seriously. I wish I were more like you and I try to be. But while I try to climb higher, despite the best of intentions, I realize I'm not perfect and probably never will be. But, thanks for being a role model others can aspire to. |
I really don't know what makes you post that. What does perfection have to do with anything? Do you think that because I posted that last post that I never make decisions based on laziness? You don't know me and although I try to post what I think is correct according to Torah values, that in no way says anything about whether or how much I live up to those values.
The point of this thread is not what I do in my personal life but what secular values have crept into our minds. The point about "ease" is something I read Friday night in "Holy Woman" (see the thread on the book if you don't know what I'm referring to) where the author makes this point explicitly which is why I posted it.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Motek
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 6:54 pm
|
carrot - I don't have time to respond now. Just want to let you know I quickly read your post and am not ignoring you.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
healthymama
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 10:12 pm
| Quote: | | All our talk about the special marriage relationship, the beauty of Mikva, etc. would not fly to well in cultures where romance was not an expected part of life, it was normal to marry more than one wife, and for the wife to be much lower status than the husband |
Case in point- the rambam's perspective on the women's obligations to the husband was very much reflective of his culture. Or so I learned.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Crayon210
|
Tue, Nov 21 2006, 10:38 pm
|
What is the Rambam's perspective?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Ruchel
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:29 am
|
such an interesting discussion, I can't wait to read more!
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
healthymama
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:56 am
| Quote: | | with the blow-up bras, |
BTW, Ester, what is a blow up bra ?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Ruchel
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 11:27 am
| healthymama wrote: | | Quote: | | with the blow-up bras, |
BTW, Ester, what is a blow up bra ? |
maybe she meant pushup?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Motek
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:42 pm
carrot: Chazal say, "When you go to a city, follow its customs." Check out the sicha on Vayeishev 5752 in which the Rebbe quotes this statement in connection with the birur of France and discusses it at length. The Rebbe says there that we are machshiv minhagei ha'medina and use them in our service of Hashem. In other words, we do not act in a vacuum. So what this thread is about is which secular values that are antithetical to Torah or take a form that is antithetical Torah, have crept into our minds.
As you say, it's not black and white. Democracy for example, which I mentioned earlier, has its good points. However, when frum people adopt the mindset of democracy when it conflicts with Torah, that's bad. Understand?
| Quote: | | Also will you please answer the rest of my post? |
Which part?
| Quote: | | "turn it and turn it for everything is in it" - everything comes from Torah |
| carrot wrote: | | I don't understand what you mean with that quote? |
That if you see something in Torah or Torah life that is seemingly taken from the non jews, if it is something truly positive, it is derived from Torah and the non jews derived it from us.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
Motek
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:43 pm
another secular value -
smoking - "alive with pleasure" "you've come a long way baby"
all cigarette ads have the same message: smoking is fun, healthy, and attractive. Ads show men who look masculine or manly, hip, cool, adventurous, mature, and strong. Women look s-xy, stylish, beautiful, glamorous, relaxed, secure, and independent.
too many frum people fall for this
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
roza
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 11:11 pm
Just to add to Carrot's point about presentation of Torah philosophy and halacha in our days.
Many Torah ideas are presented in these kind of 'easy to read -easy to do' books called "Self-help" - definitely a goyisher style.
About democracy - I think, the Rebbe called this country - medina shel chesed.
May be, democracy, where it does not contradict halacha of cause, is a good thing after all, and is a Torah value.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
chavamom
|
Thu, Nov 23 2006, 11:46 pm
COming into it a bit late, but mommyof6, I hope you only mean the mentality of 'why should I move to Israel when it's so comfortable here' and are not inplying that if you aren't in Israel you are making a mistake.
As someone who lived in Israel for many years and has asked many hard shailos, I can tell you 'it ain't necessarily so'. As much as I would love to be back 'home', so far every rav and gadol we've asked has told us to stay put here.
Implying that people who are in the US are there for their personal comfort only feels like a giant 'poke in the eye'. Unfortunately, there are many reasons that many of us still reside in chu'l. We are still in galus.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
shalhevet
|
Fri, Nov 24 2006, 2:36 am
| chavamom wrote: | COming into it a bit late, but mommyof6, I hope you only mean the mentality of 'why should I move to Israel when it's so comfortable here' and are not inplying that if you aren't in Israel you are making a mistake.
As someone who lived in Israel for many years and has asked many hard shailos, I can tell you 'it ain't necessarily so'. As much as I would love to be back 'home', so far every rav and gadol we've asked has told us to stay put here.
Implying that people who are in the US are there for their personal comfort only feels like a giant 'poke in the eye'. Unfortunately, there are many reasons that many of us still reside in chu'l. We are still in galus. |
I was talking specifically about that mentality, and certainly not about people who have asked shailas of a rav and have been told to be somewhere else. I was talking about people who put gashmius before the importance of living in EY and not people who put da'as Torah first!
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
suomynona
|
Fri, Nov 24 2006, 3:05 am
| mummyof6 wrote: |
I was talking specifically about that mentality, and certainly not about people who have asked shailas of a rav and have been told to be somewhere else. I was talking about people who put gashmius before the importance of living in EY and not people who put da'as Torah first! |
I think you are oversimplifying. Not everyone who doesn't live in e"y is doing it for gashmius reasons. Not everyone is ready to leave their families and friends and move to a place with a totally different mentality, culture, language etc. Does that fall under "gashmius" too?
In fact, if you have the money, you can have almost all the gashmius of American in e"y too.
Also, I don't recall ever hearing that Da'as Torah tells everyone in America to move to Israel.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
healthymama
|
Fri, Nov 24 2006, 9:17 am
| Quote: | another secular value -
smoking - "alive with pleasure" "you've come a long way baby"
all cigarette ads have the same message: smoking is fun, healthy, and attractive. Ads show men who look masculine or manly, hip, cool, adventurous, mature, and strong. Women look s-xy, stylish, beautiful, glamorous, relaxed, secure, and independent.
too many frum people fall for this |
The Rebbeim smoked. Didn't they ?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
