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Vaccination Brain Picking Question
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 11:54 am
tissues wrote:
Cookies n Cream wrote:
amother wrote:
I went to the doctor with my 8 week old not sure if I wanted to vaccinate. there was a 17 month old boy who acted like a 7 month old cause he hade meningitis. made my decision much easier


So are you saying that you did or did not vaccinate?
I understood that she did because she saw what meningitis looked like and wanted to prevent it. JOOC, amother, do you know if the child with meningitis had been vaccinated for it or not?


In addition, do you know what kind of meningitis the child had? Aseptic/Viral Meningitis or Bacterial Meningitis?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 11:58 am
Hib vaccine provides protection against one specific bacteria that can cause meningitis. There are, of course, other bacteria that cause bacterial meningitis (in addition to viruses, which are generally not as serious).
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 12:10 pm
flowerpower wrote:
amother wrote:
I went to the doctor with my 8 week old not sure if I wanted to vaccinate. there was a 17 month old boy who acted like a 7 month old cause he hade meningitis. made my decision much easier


There was a child that I worked with that was brain damaged because he got meningitis as a baby. His family doesn't believe in vaccinating.


I have a relative that is the same.
Not necessarily because they don't believe in vaccinating, but it happened at a very very young age and the child had not been vaccinated yet.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 12:11 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Hib vaccine provides protection against one specific bacteria that can cause meningitis. There are, of course, other bacteria that cause bacterial meningitis (in addition to viruses, which are generally not as serious).
In other words, the amother may have vaccinated her child based on her observation of a disease which has no vaccine even... (Like someone who is newly married taking fertility medication to protect her from someone else's IF)
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 12:17 pm
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
Hib vaccine provides protection against one specific bacteria that can cause meningitis. There are, of course, other bacteria that cause bacterial meningitis (in addition to viruses, which are generally not as serious).
In other words, the amother may have vaccinated her child based on her observation of a disease which has no vaccine even... (Like someone who is newly married taking fertility medication to protect her from someone else's IF)


What? Vaccines are not meds. Their entire purpose is preventative.

I think when someone observes severe ramifications of a not so rare illness, its logical that they may choose to protect themselves against that disease via whatever means are possible. We can't protect ourselves from everything, but we can protect ourselves from some things. Its not all or nothing.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 12:22 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
Hib vaccine provides protection against one specific bacteria that can cause meningitis. There are, of course, other bacteria that cause bacterial meningitis (in addition to viruses, which are generally not as serious).
In other words, the amother may have vaccinated her child based on her observation of a disease which has no vaccine even... (Like someone who is newly married taking fertility medication to protect her from someone else's IF)


What? Vaccines are not meds. Their entire purpose is preventative.

I think when someone observes severe ramifications of a not so rare illness, its logical that they may choose to protect themselves against that disease via whatever means are possible. We can't protect ourselves from everything, but we can protect ourselves from some things. Its not all or nothing.

If you see the logic there, can you see the logic go the other way too? Too me, it's not logical. It's an emotional, knee-jerk reaction. The amother came into the office undecided, and this is what helped her make her decision.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 12:30 pm
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 12:35 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
Ok. If that's how it is by you - equal logic on both sides of the coin, then I couldn't care less what is the final deciding factor whether emotions, a heads or tails flip, or a eeny meeny miny mo... Rolling Eyes
I'd venture to say that anyone that researches vaccines does not see equal logic on both sides, and they make the decision on which side seems MORE logical.

I was just surprised that you, a poster who is usually more consistent in her views, applaud an emotional decision to vaccinate, but is appalled by an emotional decision not to vaccinate.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 1:16 pm
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
Ok. If that's how it is by you - equal logic on both sides of the coin, then I couldn't care less what is the final deciding factor whether emotions, a heads or tails flip, or a eeny meeny miny mo... Rolling Eyes
I'd venture to say that anyone that researches vaccines does not see equal logic on both sides, and they make the decision on which side seems MORE logical.

I was just surprised that you, a poster who is usually more consistent in her views, applaud an emotional decision to vaccinate, but is appalled by an emotional decision not to vaccinate.


but there isn't equal logic on both sides - it's not even close! There are numerous studies showing that vaccines are safe and the vast majority of the medical establishment advocates for their use. Not to mention the historical evidence of the havoc these diseases caused in pre vaccination days vs. the tiny population of anecdotal evidence that vaccinations might harm some individuals.

so again, as long as the anti-vaccine community remains small enough not to pose a threat to the rest of society I believe they can be tolerated but if enough people buy into the junk science or scare tactics used to justify non-vaccination the govt. absolutely should mandate vaccination as a public safety measure.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 3:06 pm
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
Ok. If that's how it is by you - equal logic on both sides of the coin, then I couldn't care less what is the final deciding factor whether emotions, a heads or tails flip, or a eeny meeny miny mo... Rolling Eyes
I'd venture to say that anyone that researches vaccines does not see equal logic on both sides, and they make the decision on which side seems MORE logical.

I was just surprised that you, a poster who is usually more consistent in her views, applaud an emotional decision to vaccinate, but is appalled by an emotional decision not to vaccinate.


I'm sure many people, like myself, see compelling arguments on both sides. I do look at each vaccine individually (and selectively vaccinate), which makes it easier to come to logical conclusions instead of lumping all vaccines together and having a mess of information all over the place.

Also, I will point out that I didn't actually applaud the decision to allow emotions to influence the decision. I said that I understand how it can affect the outcome. Whether or not we're even conscious of it, I think we all allow our emotions to influence our decisions to some degree. We're not really capable of turning off that part of our minds. I'm appalled by anyone who takes a stand based on a knee jerk reaction or scare tactics without thoroughly researching, whatever the case may be.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 5:49 pm
amother wrote:
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
Ok. If that's how it is by you - equal logic on both sides of the coin, then I couldn't care less what is the final deciding factor whether emotions, a heads or tails flip, or a eeny meeny miny mo... Rolling Eyes
I'd venture to say that anyone that researches vaccines does not see equal logic on both sides, and they make the decision on which side seems MORE logical.

I was just surprised that you, a poster who is usually more consistent in her views, applaud an emotional decision to vaccinate, but is appalled by an emotional decision not to vaccinate.


but there isn't equal logic on both sides - it's not even close! There are numerous studies showing that vaccines are safe and the vast majority of the medical establishment advocates for their use. Not to mention the historical evidence of the havoc these diseases caused in pre vaccination days vs. the tiny population of anecdotal evidence that vaccinations might harm some individuals.

so again, as long as the anti-vaccine community remains small enough not to pose a threat to the rest of society I believe they can be tolerated but if enough people buy into the junk science or scare tactics used to justify non-vaccination the govt. absolutely should mandate vaccination as a public safety measure.

Did I say it's equal? Posters like you make me nervous... just repeating and not reading.... I said IF it's equal, then decide how you want based on what you want. If it's not equal by you, do whatever is more logical to you. Go ahead! Have fun! and I'll do the same...
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 5:53 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
Ok. If that's how it is by you - equal logic on both sides of the coin, then I couldn't care less what is the final deciding factor whether emotions, a heads or tails flip, or a eeny meeny miny mo... Rolling Eyes
I'd venture to say that anyone that researches vaccines does not see equal logic on both sides, and they make the decision on which side seems MORE logical.

I was just surprised that you, a poster who is usually more consistent in her views, applaud an emotional decision to vaccinate, but is appalled by an emotional decision not to vaccinate.


I'm sure many people, like myself, see compelling arguments on both sides. I do look at each vaccine individually (and selectively vaccinate), which makes it easier to come to logical conclusions instead of lumping all vaccines together and having a mess of information all over the place.

Also, I will point out that I didn't actually applaud the decision to allow emotions to influence the decision. I said that I understand how it can affect the outcome. Whether or not we're even conscious of it, I think we all allow our emotions to influence our decisions to some degree. We're not really capable of turning off that part of our minds. I'm appalled by anyone who takes a stand based on a knee jerk reaction or scare tactics without thoroughly researching, whatever the case may be.


I don't know in which state, country, you live in that you have the liberty to selectively vaccinate. Where I live it's an all or nothing deal. So you gotta decide which side you're on.

As for your second point, you didn't applaud; you only thought it perfectly "logical" to make a decision to vaccinate as an emotional reaction based on the observation of a DIFFERENT disease.

As to your last sentence, I agree.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:03 pm
tissues wrote:


I don't know in which state, country, you live in that you have the liberty to selectively vaccinate. Where I live it's an all or nothing deal. So you gotta decide which side you're on.

As for your second point, you didn't applaud; you only thought it perfectly "logical" to make a decision to vaccinate as an emotional reaction based on the observation of a DIFFERENT disease.

As to your last sentence, I agree.


May I ask where you live? I've never heard of any country that permits a person to elect not to vaccinate, but does not allow them to selectively vaccinate. Certainly you may do so within the United States.

In the US, there may be issues with claiming a religious exemption for selective vaccination. Of course, I'd argue that there is a real issue in claiming that Orthodox Judaism forbids vaccination.

Leaving that aside, the issues of forced vaccination and school waivers are entirely different, so I want to be sure that you are not improperly conflating them.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:03 pm
I may not be making myself clear, because you seem to be misunderstanding my intent. But there's no reason to go round and round in circles defining each phrase because it's off topic anyway. I appreciate that you distance yourself from those who make emotional, hysterical decisions that aren't supported by science.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:05 pm
Barbara wrote:
tissues wrote:


I don't know in which state, country, you live in that you have the liberty to selectively vaccinate. Where I live it's an all or nothing deal. So you gotta decide which side you're on.

As for your second point, you didn't applaud; you only thought it perfectly "logical" to make a decision to vaccinate as an emotional reaction based on the observation of a DIFFERENT disease.

As to your last sentence, I agree.


May I ask where you live? I've never heard of any country that permits a person to elect not to vaccinate, but does not allow them to selectively vaccinate. Certainly you may do so within the United States.

In the US, there may be issues with claiming a religious exemption for selective vaccination. Of course, I'd argue that there is a real issue in claiming that Orthodox Judaism forbids vaccination.

Leaving that aside, the issues of forced vaccination and school waivers are entirely different, so I want to be sure that you are not improperly conflating them.

Yes, it is an issue.

I don't understand your last sentence. Can you explain?
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:13 pm
tissues wrote:
Barbara wrote:
tissues wrote:


I don't know in which state, country, you live in that you have the liberty to selectively vaccinate. Where I live it's an all or nothing deal. So you gotta decide which side you're on.

As for your second point, you didn't applaud; you only thought it perfectly "logical" to make a decision to vaccinate as an emotional reaction based on the observation of a DIFFERENT disease.

As to your last sentence, I agree.


May I ask where you live? I've never heard of any country that permits a person to elect not to vaccinate, but does not allow them to selectively vaccinate. Certainly you may do so within the United States.

In the US, there may be issues with claiming a religious exemption for selective vaccination. Of course, I'd argue that there is a real issue in claiming that Orthodox Judaism forbids vaccination.

Leaving that aside, the issues of forced vaccination and school waivers are entirely different, so I want to be sure that you are not improperly conflating them.

Yes, it is an issue.

I don't understand your last sentence. Can you explain?


You say that you don't have the liberty to selectively vaccinate. That means that if, tomorrow, you concluded that the risk of polio was sufficiently high, and you vaccinated your children. they would be forced to take each and every other recommended vaccine. I cannot vouch for every country in the world, but certainly in the United States, that is not the case. You may elect to selectively vaccinate. If you live in the US, then your statement to the contrary is untrue.

The decision to selectively vaccinate may have consequences as to other things, such as you right to receive a religious exemption that is required by the school to which you send your children. Of course, you could homeschool. Or you could move to a state that permits philosophical objections to vaccinations.

But you are not required to provide all vaccinations if you provide one.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:15 pm
If you are referring to my statement about Orthodox Judaism, I am not familiar with any halachic authority that specifically states that halacha demands that we not vaccinate. If that were the case, then surely the yeshivas in Monsey or Lakewood would have broad exemptions. They don't.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:15 pm
Yes, you explained the situation well. It's true that if a child would not go to school at all or is already out of school, there would be no issue with selective vaccinations.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:17 pm
Barbara wrote:
If you are referring to my statement about Orthodox Judaism, I am not familiar with any halachic authority that specifically states that halacha demands that we not vaccinate. If that were the case, then surely the yeshivas in Monsey or Lakewood would have broad exemptions. They don't.
I was not referring to that because that is for another thread... Smile
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:30 pm
tissues wrote:
amother wrote:
tissues wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
When there is logical reasoning both ways, there's nothing wrong with allowing emotions to influence your decision. What would you suggest- a goral?
Ok. If that's how it is by you - equal logic on both sides of the coin, then I couldn't care less what is the final deciding factor whether emotions, a heads or tails flip, or a eeny meeny miny mo... Rolling Eyes
I'd venture to say that anyone that researches vaccines does not see equal logic on both sides, and they make the decision on which side seems MORE logical.

I was just surprised that you, a poster who is usually more consistent in her views, applaud an emotional decision to vaccinate, but is appalled by an emotional decision not to vaccinate.


but there isn't equal logic on both sides - it's not even close! There are numerous studies showing that vaccines are safe and the vast majority of the medical establishment advocates for their use. Not to mention the historical evidence of the havoc these diseases caused in pre vaccination days vs. the tiny population of anecdotal evidence that vaccinations might harm some individuals.

so again, as long as the anti-vaccine community remains small enough not to pose a threat to the rest of society I believe they can be tolerated but if enough people buy into the junk science or scare tactics used to justify non-vaccination the govt. absolutely should mandate vaccination as a public safety measure.

Did I say it's equal? Posters like you make me nervous... just repeating and not reading.... I said IF it's equal, then decide how you want based on what you want. If it's not equal by you, do whatever is more logical to you. Go ahead! Have fun! and I'll do the same...


and it's posters like you that make me nervous. you seem to think that you live in a vacuum and you've made it clear that you don't vaccinate although you can provide no scientific basis for doing so.
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