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Vaccination Brain Picking Question
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jun 07 2013, 7:48 pm
Barbara wrote:
If you are referring to my statement about Orthodox Judaism, I am not familiar with any halachic authority that specifically states that halacha demands that we not vaccinate. If that were the case, then surely the yeshivas in Monsey or Lakewood would have broad exemptions. They don't.


Do you ask a shaila, from a halachic authority, before making decisions you feel are right for your family?
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:50 am
tissues wrote:
Peanut2 wrote:
tissues wrote:
ally wrote:
tissues wrote:
ally wrote:
tissues wrote:


Mortality rates for diseases before the introduction of the vaccine must take into account that we have better hygiene, sanitation system, and sewer systems than previous generations.

Scheduling of vaccines is important to the topic. The more vaccines introduced, the greater the possible side effects. If we are to believe that more vaccines = healthier, I want that proven.


You don't need to take mortality rates from the Middle Ages. If you would like to argue that our superior hygiene would have entirely eradicated these diseases without vaccinations and prevented any epidemics, you will need to prove that no epidemics exist even for more innocuous diseases like the common cold or stomach bugs.

There is no point to discuss scheduling if you have decided indiscriminately that all Vaccines are Dangerous or whatever. Vaccines are not one entity that you can say "more"="healthier" or "more"="greater side effects". They must all be considered separately.

I am going to go with my common sense on this one and bow out of this argument since it is entirely pointless. The only reason I have continued thus far is to attempt to highlight the inconsistency in your arguments for the undecided anonymous viewers. Maybe it helped. If they are going to get their information from anonymous hotlines, G-d help us.


I'm not talking Middle Ages. I'm talking early to mid 1900s. I don't believe hygiene eradicates diseases but it can prevent epidemics. Just google hygiene and epidemic...

I also believe that if there IS already an epidemic (such as polio in the 50s and mumps more recently), it goes away naturally by spreading to enough people to induce herd immunity for that generation. Epidemics die a natural death, vaccines or not.

Why must vaccines be considered separately? Because you said so? As a general rule, the government doesn't allow for considering them separately: It's either one is up to date on ALL vaccinations or one opts out of vaccinating entirely. I wish we'd have the option of considering each one individually. Then I might be more open to considering the idea at all. A large part of what turns people off from vaccinations is the strategy in which government forces itself onto its citizens and doesn't allow for them to make their own decision about their health, the way in which doctors sometimes go behind the mother's back and inoculate the child with more vaccinations than agreed upon, the way in which more vaccines are added to the mandated schedule with each passing year for diseases we all had and survived (such as chickenpox and a generation ago, measles and mumps) and the clear lack of effectiveness (such as vaccinated children getting the mumps).

The hotline referred to is not anonymous. All the speakers are identified by name and listeners can feel free to do research on the reliability and of these people.

If you bow out, does that mean the cheese stays alone? Cheese


I'd like to know how hygiene changed so drastically between the 50s and 70s that it managed to eradicate polio (coincidentally with the appearance of the vaccine). And why if hygiene is the answer, any diseases still spread.

You realize that while the epidemic is "dying its natural death" it's killing and maiming people, right? You think that survival of the fittest is a more moral approach than vaccinating to protect the weak and immunocompromised?

Finally, we can't have a logical conversation if you keep lumping 50 issues together.

50 issues, about one medical procedure. And thus definitely related.

Picture this: A world in which nobody vaccinates. Vaccinations are created not specifically when there is an epidemic, but someone invents it out of the blue. Would you vaccinate? Why? You would need to think through approximately 50 issues that may have you concerned regarding this new idea. Are they 50 separate issues? Yes, but interconnected because they relate to the one step of action on your part.

If there would be only one issue with vaccines, I believe plenty more anti-vaxers would vax. Usually it's not one thing that causes someone to take action nor to intentionally not take action. Rather a combination of factors are at play. Because there are 50 significant issues about this concept, yes, that in and of itself turns people off.


I'm randomly reading but had to reply. Sorry if someone said this before or after.

A - Vaccines are NOT made out of the blue. They ARE made in response to illness, and especially epidemics. Eg Polio vaccine. You may want to read a little about vaccines and their history.

B - You can TOTALLY opt out of individual vaccines, and you do need to sign for every individual vaccine. My daughter just got one now and I had to sign twice for it.

And to repeat what was said before: When there is an epidemic CHILDREN DIE.
If you don't want to vax do what you want. But please realize that the reason these vaccine were created is because kids were dying and suffering permanent injuries. My mom's best friend got polio at one and was fine. Her brother was crippled and can barely walk.

A - You completely misunderstood. I was giving a theoretical scenario to demonstrate a point.
B - Depends on which state , and ETA, of course which country, you live in.


A- And I was giving factual information to prove that your theoretical scenario is false.

B - Can you please tell me in what state you cannot selectively vaccinate? Or in what country? Where is it either/or?

Signed,

I know a little bit about different states and countries, everywhere but NY that is!
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:58 am
amother wrote:
Barbara wrote:
If you are referring to my statement about Orthodox Judaism, I am not familiar with any halachic authority that specifically states that halacha demands that we not vaccinate. If that were the case, then surely the yeshivas in Monsey or Lakewood would have broad exemptions. They don't.


Do you ask a shaila, from a halachic authority, before making decisions you feel are right for your family?


If I were to make a sworn (or even unsworn) statement as to the requirements of my religion, I would consult with a rabbi first.

Unless, of course, its obvious. I didn't ask my rabbi if I need to leave work in time to get home for Shabbat. That's obvious. But if I wanted to tell my boss that my religion required me to be home at least an hour before lighting, I would ask a rabbi first.
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rosehill




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:32 am
Barbara wrote:
In the US, there may be issues with claiming a religious exemption for selective vaccination. Of course, I'd argue that there is a real issue in claiming that Orthodox Judaism forbids vaccination


Here's how I understand it.
The Torah requires us to do one's utmost to protect one's health.

Take vaccine A. It protects against a disease that is prevalent and life threatening. The vaccine has been around for 100 years, has proven to be effective, and has few documented side effects.

In that case, vaccinating is consistent with guarding one's health.

Then there's vaccine B. It protects against a disease that's harmless if contracted in childhood, but debilitating if contracted in adulthood. The vaccine is new, and there's no way to know how long its effects last. There have been reports of side effects that are worse than the illness it's supposed to prevent. We worry that vaccinating the child may lead to his not being immune when he's an adult when the immunity is more important.

In that case, vaccinating is NOT consistent with guarding one's health.

And that's how you could have a religious exemption for selective vaccination.

Both examples are made up.
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tissues




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:42 am
Peanut2 wrote:


A- And I was giving factual information to prove that your theoretical scenario is false.

B - Can you please tell me in what state you cannot selectively vaccinate? Or in what country? Where is it either/or?

Signed,

I know a little bit about different states and countries, everywhere but NY that is!

A - Isn't a theoretical statement not true by definition? I mean, if it was true, it wouldn't be theoretical, no?
B - You can legally do what you want, but selectively vaccinating will cause problems with the Board of Ed. See Barbara's post above.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 12:37 am
Living proof here that a frum, niddah keeping woman can get hpv. One vote for giving the gardisil vaccine here.


In response to the OP here is an interesting article about parents who came to rethink their anti-vaxing ways.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/st.....7.htm
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 11:00 am
Parents' Fear of Vaccinations Nearly Killed Their Son
By Emma Wynne
Posted on 06/11/13 | News Source ABC News | Comments (0)

Printer Friendly
Ian and Linda Williams thought they had made an informed choice not to vaccinate their children, but after their son ended up in intensive care with a tetanus infection they realised they had made a terrible mistake.

"The mistake that we made was that we underestimated the diseases and we totally over-estimated the adverse reactions", says father Ian Williams, who is speaking publicly of his family's ordeal in an effort to warn other parents about the dangers of not immunising their children.

Minor cut, major infection

It started when seven-year-old Alijah got a small cut on the bottom of his foot in December 2012.

"Of course we didn't think it was too serious, it was just a little cut but a couple of days later he started getting symptoms like a stroke on the side of his face," Mr Williams says.

"A couple of days later during the night he started to get cramps across his face. His face would contort and he was in a lot of pain."

After 24 hours in Auckland's Starship Children's hospital, the doctors diagnosed Alijah with tetanus, and he was taken to intensive care.

Mr Williams recalls his son's agony, "It's a terrible thing... Your whole body arches, your arms go up in the air."

"It's like getting cramp but it's everywhere, across the face as well. They are so tight your jaw locks."

"The tetanus bacterium makes a toxin that attacks the nerves."

"It got so bad they put him in an induced coma just to put him out of his misery."

Ian and his wife were asked to leave the room as doctors cut a hole in Alijah's throat so a life support tube could be inserted, and Alijah was heavily sedated for the next three weeks to allow his body to heal.

"We felt terrible."

"He was in such pain due to us and our decision-making process so that's why we went to the papers in New Zealand - we just wanted to get our experience out there."

"It was very obvious we had made a mistake."

Deciding not to vaccinate

As well as Alijah, the Williams have a nine-year-old son and a two-year-old daughter, and Ian Williamson says they did their own research and decided not to vaccinate their children.

"My wife was very against it for her own reasons," he says.

"I have a science degree and my wife since then has got a science degree as a midwife. I was open to both ideas so I looked into it.

"If you google vaccines you get a lot of pros and a lot of cons, and you start to read all the cons and they start to weigh on you and you start to believe all the things that are said.

"It looks like a fifty-fifty argument."

Williams says that he was influenced by stories he read on the internet that the MMR (Measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine was linked to children developing autism; that they contain mercury and aluminium and that vaccines are promoted by drug companies purely for profit.

"There are a number of myths out there, and it's really easy to get sucked in."

"As soon as they said it was tetanus my other two kids were vaccinated the very next day, against all childhood diseases."

Speaking out

The Williams' also took the unusual step of going public about what had happened to Alijah.

Ian Williams says he wants to help other parents who he thinks may be as overwhelmed as he was by the conflicting information about vaccines that is published online.

"No one wants to hurt their kids; we didn't want to hurt our kid of course.

"The main research that you should do as a parent when you're looking at vaccination, the easiest and the clearest thing you could do would be to survey doctors and ask them if they are pro or anti vaccines.

"What you will find is that almost all of them are. Then ask yourself the question, why is that?

"Once you see one of these diseases, they are terrible. Children die from these diseases."

"The mistake that we made was that we underestimated the diseases and we totally over-estimated the adverse reactions [to vaccines]"

Huge response

Despite the often highly-charged and polarised debate around childhood immunisations, Ian Williams says he's been happy to speak out and that the response to Alijah's story has been very positive.

"We've had a very big reaction in New Zealand. Alijah was on the front page of two of our biggest papers and doctors have been putting up his picture in their rooms and say families have been coming in and getting their kids vaccinated.

"There has actually been a small percentage increase in New Zealand's vaccination rates [since the story was published in January].

"That's why we did it. I'm happy to be the poster boy for vaccination."

Six months on, Alijah is recovering well.

"After three weeks in intensive care he gradually came out of it," Williams says.

"They gave him less and less drugs and his nerves started to heal."

When he came out of his heavy sedation, Alijah had to learn to walk and eat again.

"He's fine now and all you can see now is some scarring on his throat from the tracheotomy, he'll probably have that his whole life.

"It's a small price to pay. Ten per cent of all people with tetanus die."

What is tetanus?

Tetanus is caused by bacteria which are present in soils, dust and manure. The bacteria can enter the body through a wound which may be as small as a pin prick. Tetanus cannot be passed from person to person.

Tetanus is a potentially fatal disease which attacks the nervous system. It causes muscle spasms first felt in the neck and jaw muscles. Tetanus can lead to breathing difficulties, painful convulsions and abnormal heart rhythms.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 11:18 am
tissues wrote:
Peanut2 wrote:


A- And I was giving factual information to prove that your theoretical scenario is false.

B - Can you please tell me in what state you cannot selectively vaccinate? Or in what country? Where is it either/or?

Signed,

I know a little bit about different states and countries, everywhere but NY that is!

A - Isn't a theoretical statement not true by definition? I mean, if it was true, it wouldn't be theoretical, no?
B - You can legally do what you want, but selectively vaccinating will cause problems with the Board of Ed. See Barbara's post above.


While a theoretical statement is not definitively true, it is not false, either.

Again, and for the record, your earlier statement that you cannot selectively vaccinate in the US is absolutely FALSE.

Indeed, your statement that those who selectively vaccinate will have problems with the Board of Education is also false. First things first. Vaccination rules are not propagated by the Board of Education. Next, the law is not uniform in the US. Some states permit a philosophical exception, which should generally permit selective vaccination. Moreover, many states specifically permit religious exemptions for selective vaccinations; and there is a ton of information on the internet about how to obtain such exemption.

Tissues, I certainly hope that your research into deciding not to vaccinate your children is more thorough and demonstrates a better understanding of the issues than is demonstrated here.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 12:15 pm
"Then there's vaccine B. It protects against a disease that's harmless if contracted in childhood, but debilitating if contracted in adulthood. The vaccine is new, and there's no way to know how long its effects last. There have been reports of side effects that are worse than the illness it's supposed to prevent. We worry that vaccinating the child may lead to his not being immune when he's an adult when the immunity is more important.

In that case, vaccinating is NOT consistent with guarding one's health."

Just a quick comment. This is false. Often children are the reservoir infecting adults. Do you want to be responsible that your kid shared it with another kid at playgroup who happens to have a parent on chemo? Chances are, they will die and their children will grow up as orphans. Happened to me so don't say this isn't real! Three orphaned children for what!

For malaria, pregnant women are the reservoir promoting infection and drug resistance! How many pple die from malaria yearly?

Stop doing Internet research to decide medical issues and feelings. Speak to experts!
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rosehill




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 2:01 pm
amother wrote:


Just a quick comment. This is false. Often children are the reservoir infecting adults. Do you want to be responsible that your kid shared it with another kid at playgroup who happens to have a parent on chemo? Chances are, they will die and their children will grow up as orphans. Happened to me so don't say this isn't real! Three orphaned children for what!

For malaria, pregnant women are the reservoir promoting infection and drug resistance! How many pple die from malaria yearly?

Stop doing Internet research to decide medical issues and feelings. Speak to experts!


Honey, of course it's false. Were you to bother reading the rest of the post, you would have seen that it's a made up scenario. I was trying to show how, in theory, a person could use religious exemption to give some vaccines but not others.

I'm sorry your friend with cancer died, but how that's related to a fictitious illustration is beyond me.

You don't know which vaccines I do or do not give, and you don't know what research I did to arrive at my conclusions, but it had nothing to do with emotive rants by people named *amother*.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 3:44 pm
Regarding that article, you are aware that people don't develop immunity against a poison, right. Essentially, tetanus is a poison and so you can't develop immunity after contracting the disease naturally (as per the CDC's website), how on earth would you develop immunity after a vaccine?

The article also doesn't state whether or not the wound was allowed to bleed, which would've prevented the bacteria from turning poisonous, as it is anaerobic.

The article doesn't state whether he contracted tetanus on a farm or somewhere else which makes a very big difference.

The article also states that, the parents didn't seek medical help once the child exhibited stroke symptoms, they waited a few days, which normal parent wouldn't take their child to the E.R. as soon as they saw something was way off??

And finally, he survived due to the medical treatment he got unscathed, what's the uproar about?

When someone posts a story about a child who got sick after vaccines, pro-vaxers say it's fear mongering. What exactly is this?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 7:25 pm
amother wrote:
Regarding that article, you are aware that people don't develop immunity against a poison, right. Essentially, tetanus is a poison and so you can't develop immunity after contracting the disease naturally (as per the CDC's website), how on earth would you develop immunity after a vaccine?

The article also doesn't state whether or not the wound was allowed to bleed, which would've prevented the bacteria from turning poisonous, as it is anaerobic.

The article doesn't state whether he contracted tetanus on a farm or somewhere else which makes a very big difference.

The article also states that, the parents didn't seek medical help once the child exhibited stroke symptoms, they waited a few days, which normal parent wouldn't take their child to the E.R. as soon as they saw something was way off??

And finally, he survived due to the medical treatment he got unscathed, what's the uproar about?

When someone posts a story about a child who got sick after vaccines, pro-vaxers say it's fear mongering. What exactly is this?


You are wrong. From medline:

Tetanus is a serious illness caused by tetanus bacteria. If you get tetanus, there is usually a long course of treatment. The tetanus vaccine can prevent tetanus but its protection does not last forever. Adults should get a tetanus shot, or booster, every 10 years. If you get a bad cut or burn, see your doctor--you may need a booster.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:15 pm
Actually CDC website states "efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine trial" really? What are you basing the fact that they work on?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:24 pm
In case my child does contract or runs the risk of contracting (for example has a deep puncture wound) I would give her the Tig (as that isn't a vaccine but ready antibodies).
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:26 pm
amother wrote:
Actually CDC website states "efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine trial" really? What are you basing the fact that they work on?


then how about we both step on rusty nails that horses have dumped manure on, and then see what happens?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:29 pm
Toxin vaccine like tetanus, botulism... Are not against the toxin. No one in their right mind would give any one a dose of toxin. But, the the toxin has two part, the toxin and the part the the toxin is bound to which carries it into cells to be toxic. The vaccine is against the binding portion. Thereby, if the toxin is never in a person, the toxin cannot enter the cells due to antibody binding to it to actually work. In addition, it triggers a responsein the prescence of the bacterial toxin. They work well but do need boosters every 10 years or so. No toxin is entering with this vaccine.

Before you think the dr is putting a toxin in you and you can't develop immunity to it, know what is in the vaccine!
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:30 pm
amother wrote:
Actually CDC website states "efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine trial" really? What are you basing the fact that they work on?


Nice snipping! Do you also quote passages by placing elipses in place of the word "not"? The very next words are:

Quote:
It can be inferred from protective antitoxin levels that a complete tetanus toxoid series has a clinical efficacy of virtually 100%; cases of tetanus occurring in fully immunized persons whose last dose was within the last 10 years are extremely rare.


Ah, so they check the antitoxin levels. Very clever! That means they know it works.

It continues:

Quote:
Antitoxin levels decrease with time. While some persons may be protected for life, by 10 years after the last dose, most persons have antitoxin levels that only approach the minimal protective level. As a result, routine boosters are recommended every 10 years.


Quote:
In a small percentage of individuals, antitoxin levels fall below the minimal protective level before 10 years have elapsed. To ensure adequate protective antitoxin levels, persons who sustain a wound that is other than clean and minor should receive a tetanus booster if more than 5 years have elapsed since their last dose. (See Wound Management for details on persons who previously received fewer than three doses).
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:41 pm
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4220.pdf

Can a person get tetanus more than once?

Yes! Tetanus disease does not result in immunity because so little of the potent toxin is required to cause the disease.

So you don't get immune to naturally occurring tetanus, but you do develop immunity to a tetanus vaccine. hmmmm

They also state that out of the 12 case-patients who contracted tetanus HALF had received no prior toxoid. IOW 6 did and 6 didn't but they all got tetanus. I'm curious to know how many of those case-patients had resulting affects or died from tetanus.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:54 pm
"They also state that out of the 12 case-patients who contracted tetanus HALF had received no prior toxoid. IOW 6 did and 6 didn't but they all got tetanus. I'm curious to know how many of those case-patients had resulting affects or died from tetanus."
I didn't see any case studies on that link showing 50%of vacc individuals were infected or am I misunderstanding your post. I know the vaccine is highly more effective than that. Approx 95% or higher.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Jun 11 2013, 8:57 pm
Tetanus toxoid was first produced in 1924, and tetanus toxoid immunizations were used extensively in the armed services during World War II. Tetanus cases among this population declined from 70 in World War I (13.4/100,000 wounds and injuries) to 12 in World War II (0.44/100,000). Of the 12 case-patients, half had received no prior toxoid.

this is directly from the CDC's website.
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