Homosexual behavior ...a curable disease?

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:51 am

http://forward.com/articles/149114/?p=1

Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky has recently joined forces with JONAH, a Jewish “change therapy” organization, to claim that, as a matter of religious principle, since the Torah prohibits homosexual behavior the orientation must be, by necessity, a curable disease.

Not a month goes by without a young person just out of the closet — or sometimes that person’s shocked parents — contacting me in search of Orthodox leaders to respond credibly to their questions. It was this reality that was on my mind as I confronted the backlash to a same-relations commitment ceremony I performed last November. In response, 100 rabbis signed a statement censuring me. While these rabbis may prefer to foist this challenge upon me, the truth is that, as rabbis, we are all responsible for the conflict between present halachic norms and the real lives of people. We are all responsible for the gay and lesbian kids who are growing up in Orthodox communities and want a future. And I am not the only Orthodox rabbi who believes so.

....Given the unreasonable demand of life-long celibacy, it is very tempting for rabbis to believe that therapy can solve the dilemma. Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky has recently joined forces with JONAH, a Jewish “change therapy” organization, to claim that, as a matter of religious principle, since the Torah prohibits homosexual behavior the orientation must be, by necessity, a curable disease. Responding to this dangerous circular argument, another learned Orthodox rabbi and scholar, a man who has written extensively about homosexuality, has publicly said, “I am not under any compulsion to support a failed therapy in order to save myself from a distressing religious conflict.”

...While this scenario happens often enough, it is perhaps more common in frum, or religious, homes that teens don’t come out to family members at all. Many gay kids, when they arrive at puberty, turn sullen and detached and suffer from clinical depression. One out of six contemplates suicide. I was recently told that in a single New York City psychiatric clinic there is a suicide attempt by a gay Orthodox person yearly. Sadly, the healthiest of these young people, having read the tea leaves years earlier, decide that they will have no life in the Orthodox world and are no longer frum by the time their parents find out.

......I conducted this ceremony because I thought that it was time to tell your sons and daughters that are wondering what they can expect from life that they can remain committed to God and to the grand and transformative vision of Torah and mitzvot; that they can find companionship, create families and become active members of frum communities. And when loneliness gives way to the miraculous discovery of love, maybe they can raise that love to commitment with the hope that their families and friends, in a way different from most but still religiously meaningful, joyous and sweet, can dance with them.

Mitzvahmom

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:18 am

My ex husband is Gay, and I must tell u since he came out and accepted who he is. He is a healthier person, better father and we probably have a better relationship now then we did while married.

I had many people tell me to contact Jonah to "help" my ex husband. But this man was horribly controlling, abusive and honestly at that moment I could care less about helping him. But once he was released from marriage, and religious holds his entire outlook in life changed.

My current husband, who's ex is a lesbian has another outlook. His ex is so anti religion that it is scary, and she's pushing her life onto their children. They were the best of friends, and really care about each other as friends. Yet she shows no respect for the life (or for the man she claims to be close friends with) she originally choose with her ex husband and agreed to raise their children as frum children. Instead she does everything she can, underhanded poking at them to make them not frum and sadly it's working.

Where as my ex and I, who had a horrible marriage, he shows respect for how I am raising them. He takes them to only kosher restaurants and is respectful. I have no explaination as to why it worked out like that, but B"H. I fear the day that my children loose their innocence and realize what their father is. In their innocence, when my husband and I first married my children wanted to set up my ex with his ex. In their own words, "they are so similar."

My husband and I have a laugh, because we are so lucky to have found each other. The likelihood that we would find someone with similar situations is almost an impossible thing.

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:32 am

Mitzvahmom wrote:

My ex husband is Gay, and I must tell u since he came out and accepted who he is. He is a healthier person, better father and we probably have a better relationship now then we did while married.....

(op here) Ok, now that you see the lives of homosexuals, close-up, what is your opinion of the opinion of the Gadol Hador R' Shmuel on changing them with therapy and the fact that the Torah clearly forbids homosexuality?

Is there something that The Creator of the Torah is missing? Can we pick and choose which parts of the Torah we believe and analyze our brains out to defend homosexuals who dont want to an cant be changed?

grace413

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 2:57 am

I don't understand the equivalency of something being prohibited by the Torah being a curable disease.

The Torah prohibits adultery, eating pork and shellfish (among others) stealing etc. etc. Are the people who disregard these prohibitions suffering from a disease? I think not. Is somebody going to make an organization to cure people who eat cheeseburgers?

I accept the fact that Torah prohibits certain homosexual acts. Men s-xually attracted to other men have the option of acting on these urges or not. Just as an unmarried man/woman has the option of intercourse, as a married couple has the option of intercourse while niddah, etc.

ora_43

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 5:38 am

Are you sure his own, original words were "curable disease"? Or could that maybe be the writer's translation of something else, like, "if it's forbidden, we must have the power to rid ourselves of the taiva for it"?

I think that whether same-relations attraction can be "cured" depends on the person. Some people say they were able to go from gay to straight, and who am I to argue? But I doubt it would work for most people.

That's speaking practically, right now. In the future, with more research into brain science, I can see a day coming where it would be possible to change s-xual attraction.

Tzippora

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 7:51 am

Chochma bagoyim ta'amin. All scientific studies show that homosexuality in humans (particularly in men) is inborn and NOT a curable disease. The rav's logic doesn't follow - just because it's assur to do something doesn't mean people can't have a very strong taavah to do it - and organizations like JONAH are VERY questionable in terms of efficacy and there have been some abuse/ethical issues as well: http://www.thejewishweek.com/n.....xuals

As for whether homosexuality is curable, see this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/......html Please be respectful, I know the author personally.

ETA: The reason that rabbonim WANT it to be "curable" is because that makes their jobs easier. If it is curable, then a gay bachur is just not trying hard enough to be cured, and therefore it's the bachur's fault - so nobody could blame the rav for kicking the guy out of yeshiva. If they accept that it isn't curable, then kicking a gay guy out of yeshiva just seems rather cruel... and it raises a host of larger practical acceptance issues that they don't want to deal with.

5*Mom

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 8:08 am

The jury is still out on this one. The research isn't reliable on either side. Consider this article by Dr. Benzion Sorotzkin
http://www.drsorotzkin.com/lig......html
in which he points out that the "research" which "proves" that homosexuality is genetic and unchangeable has been sponsored by gay rights groups with a political agenda and is therefore questionable. Kind of like the Cattle Association providing research that proves that red meat has no associated health risks. Maybe, maybe not. Not a study I would rely on.

OTOH, JONAH's professional and ethical credibility is also seriously suspect, not to mention that their methods are not proven. I have no idea why one would publicly align with this approach.

I feel tremendous compassion for any Jew in this impossible situation, regardless of the cause.

Tzippora

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 8:29 am

5*Mom wrote:

That article has so many fallacies and misrepresentations I won't even bother to list them all. For starters, nobody is talking about a "gay gene" per se. However, if there is a genetic propensity and environmental factors (I.e. hormone exposure in utero - there is evidence that a child is proportionately more likely to be gay if he has multiple older brothers, for example) come into play, it may be a permanent hard-wiring of the brain. To say that when you talk about environmental factors you're referring to an overprotective mother is just nonsense and completely misleading!

Moreover, the article you quoted NARTH. If the gay rights community are the cattle ranchers, you're doing the equivalent of citing PETA, claiming that a vegan diet will cure cancer. They are an organization specifically geared toward advocating for conversion therapy. According to Wikipedia, "The American Psychoanalytic Association (APsaA) spoke against NARTH in 2004, stating "that organization does not adhere to our policy of nondiscrimination and ... their activities are demeaning to our members who are gay and lesbian."[55]" http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/res.....y.pdf

Sorry, claiming a vast left-wing conspiracy in the face of standard medical science - especially when you are not accurately describing the medical/scientific claims - just won't fly.

mamommommy

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 9:07 am

Why are people afraid of the word disease, as if it's inherently offensive? A disease means that there is a deviation from the normal or natural function. Do we not consider homosexuality to fall into that category, or are there those on this board who consider it as natural as a heterosexual lifestyle?

And let's discuss other "diseases" such as depression and anxiety? Is it offensive to label those who suffer from these conditions as mentally ill or as having a "disorder?"

And how can anyone label any condition as "incurable?" I can't even begin to list the diseases or conditions for which there was no cure say, 100 years ago, which today are the simplest things to treat. Just because we do not know the cure, does not mean that one does not exist, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should stop trying to find one.

5*Mom

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 9:15 am

Tzippora wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

You misunderstand me. My point is that there is enough misinformation on both sides that one can't take a reliable position either way.

Clarissa

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 9:22 am

mamommommy wrote:

It is not a disease. For them it is how they were born and it is normal and natural. God made them that way. They were born that way and they'll die that way, even if they marry someone of the opposite s*x and fake heterosexuality. It doesn't change. It is not the same as depression and anxiety.

You ask if it's offensive? Well, putting that in the same category as mental illness is offensive, so I am offended. My gay friends are very, very happy, thank you very much.

imasinger

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 9:36 am

amother wrote:

yoshi wrote:

"Cure" homosexuality? shock

That's just downright offensive.

Go ahead, feel free to think/feel that way, youre not putting your opinion over anyone other than the Torah's and a Gadol Hador's opinion.

Are you saying that the Torah wrongly prohibits homosexuality, because theres no personal choice involved, and homosexuals cant survive any other way?

Its a difficult issue...

You know what? I've worked with children with cerebral palsy and all kinds of other horrible things. There are plenty of people in this world who are given no personal choice about unspeakable lives, or who are given a choice that will move them away from a Torah life.

Just because the Torah prohibits homosexuality doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. There is a lot of research backing up the notion that it is not a curable condition. When I see friends who suffer so, my heart goes out to them. B"H, I personally am not faced with the choice between following Torah and following a core piece of who I am as a human being. I will not judge those who are faced with such a choice.

mamommommy

Tue, Jan 10 2012, 9:43 am

Clarissa wrote:

mamommommy wrote:

People are born with many different diseases, and no one says "Well, G-d made me this way. This is the way that I was born so it must be normal and natural." And eople are born with both physical and mental illnesses. What does it matter which form of illness homosexuality is compared to? They are all deviations from the natural functions.

And being offended by being lumped in the same category as mental illness is offensive to those with mental illness, who actually far outnumber those who are homosexual. So, if we want to talk about societal norms, then mental illness is statistically far more normal than homosexuality. And by the way, there are also plenty of mental illnesses for which there is no known cure, and for which many people do not even bother seeking treatment because they are fine with their condition, but I digress.

We are all frum women here, so I certainly hope that we are all starting with the basic premise that homosexuality is not natural. By natural, I do not mean inborn or genetic, I mean that it is the natural function. It does not delegitimize the feelings of those who are homosexual, but if we start with that basic premise, then we must assume that there is treatment for it, even if those who have it happy not being treated.