Found empty package in son's laundry.

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 4:13 am

I couldn't bring myself to type the title with these words, so let me explain what kind of package.

Doing laundry, I found an empty condom package in my son's pocket.

What in the world am I supposed to do or say about this??

He is 16, and had said that he met a girl "friend" who is younger than him (14) but less religious than him.

mizle10

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 4:18 am

I don't know what to tell you, but HUGS!!!!! that's not fun Sad

lilacdreams

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 4:19 am

hugs - I really don't have any good advice, but ATLEAST he is using a condom - your problems would be much worse if he wasn't!
Maybe call Kav Lenoar which is an organization - ENglish speaking that helps better understanding between teens and their families. They are on Keren Hayesod Street in J-m.

grace413

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 4:48 am

Take a deep breath.

Has your DH discussed such subjects with DS? I strongly suggest that any conversation be done by DH and not you.

Aside from the fact that we don't want our sons doing these things, if the girl is only 14 that's really young and if her parents find out....it could get ugly.

We can always hope that it's just teen-age showing off and it wasn't really used for its main purpose. Hug

lilacdreams

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 6:03 am

age 14 is actually illegal so it might be enough to scare him by telling him he could be arrested for rape. But that isn't the final solution because obviously you dont want him doing it with older girls either (where he isnt breaking the law)
I am so sorry, - teens really can give us a run for our money!

chani8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 6:14 am

grace413 wrote:

Oh right, forgot to breath. Thanks. Smile

So far we are holding our breaths and not saying anything. After all, what are we going to say? I did already tell DH that this is on him to deal with, but then stopped him (he was going to get ugly about it) and said we better think this through.

The girl is younger, but much bigger physically and much more worldly. DS was charedi, no MO, and this girl is mesorati, a pleasant girl, with easygoing parents in a second marriage.

Showing off to himself, maybe. Perhaps trying to prove his manliness, because he was molested many times by other boys (as a charedi).

Can I consider this my son's own business and not for us to even address? Apparently he knows about safe relations. The truth is, when we first came to a MO life, I had the talk with him (dh can't do this talk) and even explained safe relations because from my son's questions I could see him heading in that direction eventually. But this happened much sooner than I thought.

I am worried that there is something perverse in her being 14yrs old, but when I see her I don't feel that way, because I can tell she was determined to be active with someone. Also, DS may be more worldy about relations due to the molestations, but he is otherwise socially kind of immature, hence his feeling comfortable with a 14 yr old.

There are some other issues bothering my about this. I mean, isn't he over on something halachically? She obviously doesn't use the mikva. Is there some way (leniencies) that he is not over by this? Not that he probably cares. But how many kids are doing it these days and just what are they doing wrong exactly, halachically. Maybe if I see the list, it wont look as scary in the end.

Liba

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 6:19 am

Is he in counselling? It sounds like something to speak to his therapist about and ask him to talk to your son. If he isn't in therapy, maybe it is time to (re)start.

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 6:24 am

Since 16 is the age of consent, your son could be brought up on statutory rape charges if the girl's parents find out and blow their top.

First, you need to sit your son down and have a talk with him about this. Explain you were emptying pockets for laundry, NOT snooping around his stuff.

IMO you should ask him if her parents know and I would think long and hard about telling them.... Personally if I found out my daughters were sleeping around before marriage at age FOURTEEN, I'd probably have gone through the roof. However since I also don't live in a gender-segregated community, I'd want to make sure they're well prepared...

Bottom line though... you need to let him know you know, you need to get all the facts and you all need to proceed responsibly...

Isramom8

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 6:45 am

It "may" not be his. My son was holding cigarettes for a boy who wanted to break the habit. Although the package in your son's laundry was empty...

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 6:54 am

true story: I bought a pair of pjs when I was about 14 and took them home. When I put them on I found a little packet in the pocket. I opened it and examined this strange looking object, but I had no idea what it was, so I threw it away. Much later on in life I realised it was a condom that I had found. (I don't think the store was giving out free condoms, rather a customer had returned the PJs and left one inside)

I'm sure it could have happened that my parents found the empty package in my bin and started worrying. (I was completely not the type to do that sort of thing though)

Just putting this out there - there could be an innocent explanation.

Aren't there other uses for condoms besides s-x?? maybe he has weird friends who like to clown around.

also, maybe he is not having actual full intercourse but still wants to use a condom so it is less messy.

veganesther

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 8:44 am

okay. You admitted to your self and your son that he was molested as a youngster and now he is burdened with this unresolved zextual energy. A fourteen your old is an unacceptable outlet for his angst. You must teach him to abstain from intercourse with this child, He is guilty of perpetuating the wrong that was done to him.
I am sorry if this is harsh.
get him a therapist ASAP.

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 8:49 am

chani8 wrote:

There are some other issues bothering my about this. I mean, isn't he over on something halachically? She obviously doesn't use the mikva. Is there some way (leniencies) that he is not over by this? Not that he probably cares. But how many kids are doing it these days and just what are they doing wrong exactly, halachically. Maybe if I see the list, it wont look as scary in the end.

I'm not sure if you want an answer to this one, but you did ask. He is over on gilu arayos, having relations with a nidda is chayav kareis. Using a condom is probably an issur of zera levatala.

Not that this really helps you, and you say he probably doesn't care.

Leesah

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 8:57 am

I don't think this is gilui arayus, shal.
What is your makor for s*x with a nida who is not married being gilui arayus? I always understood it was NOT.

ellie23

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:01 am

chani8 wrote:

grace413 wrote:

Oh right, forgot to breath. Thanks. Smile

THIS IS NOT THE TYPE OF SITUATION THAT YOU SHOULD OVERLOOK AND KEEP SILENT ABOUT.

as uncomfortable as it is, you MUST address what you found with your son. firstly, this will improve the communication between all of you so that he can feel okay coming to you about this type of stuff if he wants to. secondly, this topic is WAAAY too important to nod off. anyone who knows what goes on in todays world, what with teen pregnancy (america has the highest rate of this than any industrialized country in the world), rape lawsuits, STDs (condoms DO NOT PROTECT anyone against STDs and many of them are PERMANENT), know that this is a convo you must have to give your son a fighting chance at doing the right thing. you are his parents, and the only ones that can guide him! you're all he's got!

so, you ask, WHAT DO I DO?

well, first of all, whichever parent he is closest to, or if its even then whichever parent is a better 'talker', should sit down with your son immediately at home and pull out what you found. explain CALMLY to him that you found it innocently while doing his laundry (you do not want himt o think you were going through his stuff!) then you say that you just want to hear what he has to say about it and then you remain quiet and listen. he may say its not his. this may be true or not. either way, continue on to have a conversation with him about if it was his, after all he may be feeling that he is ready for that kind of thing, what that means for him. tell him that as his parent, you want the absolute best for him, and getting involved in that, as tempting as it can be at times, can be so so dangerous to his health and happiness. explain the law to him so that he knows that any girl below the age of 17 in ny can actually bring him to court for rape which can result in prison time (and it has happened many times!)...also explain to him that its very hard to know what stds other people carry and that the only thing that can protect him from a permanent illness is not doing things with girls...try to find out his feelings on what your saying...pause alot to listen and ask him questions.....try to make it more of an interaction than a lecture...stress that you care about him and dont want to see him hurt or unhappy.....

its not the most fun convo to have but it is a must!!!!he needs your guidance! dont wait long to give it!

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:01 am

Leesah wrote:

I don't think this is gilui arayus, shal.
What is your makor for s*x with a nida who is not married being gilui arayus? I always understood it was NOT.

Gilui arayos is a collective name for s*xual aveiros - for sure adultery, incest, homosexuality and relations with a nidda. Many include aveiros even without intercourse, like yichud, touching with chiba, and even improper thoughts etc.

amother

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:04 am

My vote is to talk to him, remind him you love him, you're there for him, and you need him to be open with you. I think whoever has the better relationship should do it, whether mom or dad. I was not raised frum, but there are a lot of rebellious things I did that I don't know if I would have if I'd had an open relationship--AND my parents had initiated conversation. Not just once, either, this needs an ongoing dialogue.

I'm sorry you're in this position, but this is a good opportunity for you to bring up a tough subject. And I wouldn't even skimp on making him feel comfortable--bring out some cake, a drink. Yes, he's misbehaving but your priority here is open communication. You can deal with discipline later. Scaring him a/b rape charges is a very confrontational way to go--I would be very careful here about making him shut down and shut you out even more.

Leesah

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:08 am

I don't know about that. Are you saying if somebody says; "have yichud or I will kill you", the person must die? Lo nira li.

Anyway, I'd still like a makor for nida being arayus.

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:13 am

Leesah wrote:

I don't know about that. Are you saying if somebody says; "have yichud or I will kill you", the person must die? Lo nira li.

I think it depends - not all yichud is from the Torah. But some is.

Quote:

Anyway, I'd still like a makor for nida being arayus.

What are you asking? Arayus means forbidden s-xual relationships. Are you asking if it's chayav kareis? Or if it's yehareg ve'al yaavor? Nidda is a forbidden s-xual relationship (see the krias haTorah we read on YK at mincha, where it is listed with incest, adultery etc.) AFAIK it is yehareg ve'al yaavor for the man since he is active.
Maybe someone can move this discussion to a different thread, since I don't think it is helpful for the OP.

Raisin

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:24 am

isn't this similar to the seduction situation in the torah where the man has to marry the woman becasue he slept with her? (or pay money?)

I read an awful news story once where a boy slept with his younger girlfriend, and her father found out and pressed charges. the boy ended up being put on the s-x offenders register for this, and some vigilant saw his name and killed him.

I agree with Shalhevet, he is breaking some serious halochos here. Shalhevet, you forgot to mention looking after your health as one of them.

Wed, Jan 18 2012, 9:26 am

[quote="ellie23"][quote="chani8"]

grace413 wrote:

STDs (condoms DO NOT PROTECT anyone against STDs and many of them are PERMANENT)

If anything protects against STDs at all, it is that method. Why would you say that?

Not that it has anything to do with the intent of this thread.

Age of consent or not (where I live 14 is the age of consent and as long as the older person is no more than 3 years older, it is consentual and ok legally), I also don't think that was the point of this thread.

OP, where do you stand religiously? Do you have a Rav, or are you more MO? I am confused by two different posts about your stand. In certain MO circles, it is expected that youth should know about BC because "it's bound to happen", with mixed high schools, social gatherings, etc. In other orthodox circles, there is yichud, shomer negia, etc. Where do you stand on this? I ask because the way to approach this is very different.
If your son was abused, I can only hope that he was in therapy to sort out his feelings before entering any kind of trusting-emotional relationship.