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Found empty package in son's laundry.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 10:38 am
amother wrote:
amother wrote:
Amother for obvious reasons. Am I the only BT here? 14 is very normal, if by 16 my friends weren't having these kind of relationships then they were considered strange. In Israel it's even younger, I know this as a fact.


I'm a BT, and my "first" was my husband. I was brought up that certain things are saved for marriage. I don't want anyone here to think that all BTs are like your friends were.


Yes
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 10:39 am
amother wrote:
chani8 wrote:
What is still bothering me, is that I feel like I'm totally crossing boundaries on this idea of discussing it with ds. How many of you talked about zex with your parents? (This sounds like a great topic for a new thread. Whoever knows the right place to post it, go for it.) Anyway, I wonder what I would've said if my mom approached me about zex when I was a teen. I think I'd have said, "This is not something I want to talk about with you, Mom."

My other concern is, does this mean my son is OTD? He seems pretty stable otherwise. But if his girlfriend is mesorati and he's having zex, which isn't done in his crowd, does that mean he's become mesorati? Should I ask him?


I am the amother who wrote that long post above about how to approach it (the one people said THIS about.)
I did it anonymous because I would like to share some more.
my husband is a TOP YESHIVISH guy who is rebbe. He is a s-x addict. Now let me tell you loud and clear
THIS AINT HOW WE GREW UP!!!!!!
Although my husband had addiction even before the internet was around, the internet had made this way worse. There is not really such a big OTD group anymore. many of them are in white shirts and black pants but going to pr--stitutes and parlors etc. If you want to know go check out Guardyoureyes.coom and see how many hundreds of YESHIVISH TOP guys are around confessign about all the s-x they had. Many of them are addicts (like my husband because of a troubled backround), but many of them just lost agains their yetzer hara and became a bad detirorating habbit and thus called an addiction.
My oldest is 6 so I have time to worry (I hope). But this MUST be brought up to our kids. otherwise they will type S-X into google and the rest is history.

so to answer your question: IMO it is not a "bad" conversation to have with your son. It may be uncomfortable just like most RIGHT things in life are. As frum and yeshivish as I am I really don't think this is a matter of religion, and if you do make it, he probably wont accept it-not cuz off derech but bec. no teenager really wants to hear about religion.
Gotta go, welcome to email me at stillproudwife@gmail.com


Mmm, learning well or having smicha doesn't make you a top guy. Even a "top" non Jew doesn't go to harlots.
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CatLady




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 10:55 am
I'd agree that truly "top people" find a way to channel their urges in a healthier fashion (for example, I know a high-powered MD who's a cycling addict, and has ridden with Lance Armstrong)

Putting my Mom Hat on, my tactic would be to have a chat with DS and if he is "with his girlfriend", I would sincerely compliment him upon being so responsible by using protection. It would reassure me greatly to know that he was doing the right thing even while doing something that would not be my choice for him. Then, using the "channeling" approach, I'd do my best to have him develop a wider range of experiences, by which I most emphatically do NOT mean s@xual experiences. Maybe he'd like to train for a marathon, lift weights, etc., etc. And the last thing I'd worry about is his "label". Like water, every person has to find their own level and he'll find his, too.
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Leesah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 12:08 pm
Unfortunately, dh confirmed shalhevet's posts. S*x with a nida apparently IS gilui arayus. Rambam - "Ha'Nida dina keshar ha'arayut" the nida is as all other arayus. My dh did say that people are not aware of how bad it is and think it is not such a big deal. (I thought so too)
I'm so sorry OP. I hoped it would be otherwise.
Much luck to you, you have some very good advice here. I wish you the strength to handle this as well as you can.
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Inspired




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 12:17 pm
Did I read that right? Just read the post above mine. Are there really frum women who don't know that relations with a niddah is giluy arayos and chayav kares?
How does that happen?
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 12:23 pm
Leesah and Inspired, perhaps you want to start a spinoff thread for that. I think this thread should remain for practical advice and guidance that is helpful and constructive for OP irl.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 12:54 pm
Why would someone save an empty condom packet?
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JC




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 1:15 pm
DrMom wrote:
Why would someone save an empty condom packet?


Cause you cant throw it out in her bedroom garbage for her mom to find
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 1:55 pm
Inspired wrote:
Is Op aware that this is a public board viewable to anyone?


Yes, and I'm also aware that we are all bound by shmirat haloshen and anyone who would exploit my openness will burn in G so I don't think I need to worry. We are all frum here and shmirat haloshen, aren't we?
Also, the only people who would know me are very charedi and I know my their rav would never allow a person on this board with all the not tznius things we discuss here.
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JC




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 2:01 pm
chani8 wrote:
Inspired wrote:
Is Op aware that this is a public board viewable to anyone?


Yes, and I'm also aware that we are all bound by shmirat haloshen and anyone who would exploit my openness will burn in G so I don't think I need to worry. We are all frum here and shmirat haloshen, aren't we?
Also, the only people who would know me are very charedi and I know my their rav would never allow a person on this board with all the not tznius things we discuss here.


You all know I will probably never meet Chani in person ...

And I love the idea that you dont worry about anyone knowing or telling of your situation because no one you know is allowed on this board.

What I think the posters are trying to tell you is that this is a PUBLIC (available to all google users) part of Imamother. Any Tom d!ck or Harry can see your post - not just the women who join the board.
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 2:02 pm
CatLady wrote:
I'd agree that truly "top people" find a way to channel their urges in a healthier fashion (for example, I know a high-powered MD who's a cycling addict, and has ridden with Lance Armstrong)

Putting my Mom Hat on, my tactic would be to have a chat with DS and if he is "with his girlfriend", I would sincerely compliment him upon being so responsible by using protection. It would reassure me greatly to know that he was doing the right thing even while doing something that would not be my choice for him. Then, using the "channeling" approach, I'd do my best to have him develop a wider range of experiences, by which I most emphatically do [b]NOT mean s@xual experiences[/b]. Maybe he'd like to train for a marathon, lift weights, etc., etc. And the last thing I'd worry about is his "label". Like water, every person has to find their own level and he'll find his, too.


That's a refreshing idea. Thanks!
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 2:23 pm
Everything that I have posted would be very uninteresting to the general population.

OTOH, I think this is a great topic for people to see what happens in the long run with kids who were molested, even one that got great therapy.

Also, outside of the charedi world, nothing posted here would even be considered loshen hara about my son, because it isn't necessarily an issue that a 16yr old boy is being s-xually active.

For us frummies, it is a shocking issue. IT HURTS to see my son doing an aveira like this. OTOH, at least my son, after his issues, is messing around with a GIRL friend, and not doing perverse things with other boys. Any mothers of abused boys can relate to that bittersweet relief.

Finally, I got the message that someone here knows who I am. So PM me and say HI. Why do you insist on just making me feel bad?

Where should we start a thread on, What do you do when you figured out that you know someone on Imamother? Do you let them know? Do you send them messages anonymously that you know who they are? Do you tell them that the whole world is reading their posts, and what an idiot they are for posting with their real (made up) name?
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Lady Bug




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 2:28 pm
chani8 wrote:
Everything that I have posted would be very uninteresting to the general population.

OTOH, I think this is a great topic for people to see what happens in the long run with kids who were molested, even one that got great therapy.

Also, outside of the charedi world, nothing posted here would even be considered loshen hara about my son, because it isn't necessarily an issue that a 16yr old boy is being s-xually active.

For us frummies, it is a shocking issue. IT HURTS to see my son doing an aveira like this. OTOH, at least my son, after his issues, is messing around with a GIRL friend, and not doing perverse things with other boys. Any mothers of abused boys can relate to that bittersweet relief.

Finally, I got the message that someone here knows who I am. So PM me and say HI. Why do you insist on just making me feel bad?

Where should we start a thread on, What do you do when you figured out that you know someone on Imamother? Do you let them know? Do you send them messages anonymously that you know who they are? Do you tell them that the whole world is reading their posts, and what an idiot they are for posting with their real (made up) name?
I thought she was rather referring to teens, (such as your son or the girl involved) who would find the "teenagers" forum pretty interesting...
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 3:28 pm
chani8 wrote:


My other concern is, does this mean my son is OTD? He seems pretty stable otherwise. But if his girlfriend is mesorati and he's having zex, which isn't done in his crowd, does that mean he's become mesorati? Should I ask him?


IMHO you should not bring this up at all or even mention the word. By asking him, you might make him start thinking, 'one minute, AM I masorti? Or am I orthodox? Hmm, never thought about that.' and then he will feel he has to define himself. If he chooses to say, 'well, my gf is masorti, so I guess that means I am too' it can only lead to worse things because now "they are allowed". It's better that he thinks of himself as Orthodox, even if he is doing things that are against Torah. He is still so young - don't make himself box himself, let him stay flexible and iy"H he can feel free to come back.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 3:36 pm
I found imamother as a girl ... of course I never registered until I was married but I do remember a thread in the teenager section of a mom whose son was m@sturbating. it was interesting
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 3:43 pm
Let me give you a therapist's take.
What your son is doing is 100% normative for Israeli nonreligious teens. Good that he is using protection. Unfortunately it doesn't protect from HPV but it does from other things.

Do you want to talk to him? Then please leave religion out of it. Realize that nothing you say to him will make a difference unless you are speaking his language and even then, maybe 5% of it will be absorbed. If he really is having relations with his girlfriend the old adage "when the X is hard the sechel goes out of the window" applies and to him as well.

Does this have to do with his being molested? Maybe, maybe not. See a therapist about that part. But it certainly is normative behavior. Tell him what you found, tell him you figure it means they are having relations. Remind him that condoms slip and fail and that they shouldn't count on it as a totally infallable BC method. Remind him that he could get into gehokte zurris if his girlfriend gets pregnant at 14 and that she should know that as well. Remind him that she may have uncles and big brothers who will beat the you know what out of him if they find out and is his life worth his libido? Remind him that everything he is doing is against your beliefs (not his, yours) but that you aren't talking religion now, you are being practical. Tell him to consider whether he is ready to become a father at sixteen if she gets pregnant and wont/cant have an abortion. Remind him what it can do to his life considering her age and what could happen to him.

Leave halocho aside. Do not be judgemental other than saying that you know he knows its against your beliefs. Tell him maybe something non specific like "I am sure you know how many issurim you are being over, but that's your choice, you are an independent human being and that's not what I am talking about".

DO NOT GO INTO THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT, it's not worth it, it won't do anything for the discussion.
And get some therapy for yourself on how to deal with this long term.

Just BTW what I was taught is that beilas nidda penuya is not exactly the same neither as din nor as punishment as true giluy arayos, AKA incest or relations with a married woman, but I won't go into that here., it's a different degree of the same aveiro but in this case degrees have significance. Not really important in terms of your son right now.

Hatzlocho!
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cute mommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 19 2012, 4:32 pm
this can sound unpleasent , but hwen my parents were still married I found a condom inmy fathers briefcas, he put it on the table and it somehow slipped out it, maybe it was an emergency condom or he was having an affair-who knows?
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gila-rina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 20 2012, 1:00 am
amother wrote:
-I'm the amother who recommends cake!

I just think that your relationship can only improve from talking to him about it. It might be uncomfortable for him, but why shouldn't this be discussed? He should be able to talk to you about ANYTHING! You're his MOMMY! I was BEGGING (silently!) my mother to ask me if I was active with my HS BF!

I also wanted to put in that maybe keep in mind when planning your "attack" (lol) that if your DS HASN'T been active, you don't want to assume it and come off as so easy-going about it that now he thinks, "well, I guess if mom and dad don't care anyway..." There are other--er--reasons boys use condoms, some are more... alone-ish.

I would suggest asking how he feels about this girl. If he really loves her, then your approach should be assuming that she's THE ONE. Is this best for you two, if it's really a lasting relationship you can manage to wait, it shows respect, it shows how much you really care about her, and you can have something special for when you are married. It is also a way of protecting her from any accidents c"v"s. I strongly agree with the poster who suggested talking to a kiruv rabbi. Shomer negiah (and abstinence) is not taught to BTs with "Gd says its evil!" There are lots of wonderful, meaningful arguments that can reach someone at any level of observance. Your son may be getting something, some understanding or acceptance, from this girl that he doesn't get elsewhere--if you oppose her, you could lose him. Boys can be VERY protective of girlfriends.

*hugs*

All the best, you seem like an amazing mom. He's a lucky boy.

like!!!
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Inspired




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 20 2012, 1:50 am
shalhevet wrote:
chani8 wrote:


My other concern is, does this mean my son is OTD? He seems pretty stable otherwise. But if his girlfriend is mesorati and he's having zex, which isn't done in his crowd, does that mean he's become mesorati? Should I ask him?


IMHO you should not bring this up at all or even mention the word. By asking him, you might make him start thinking, 'one minute, AM I masorti? Or am I orthodox? Hmm, never thought about that.' and then he will feel he has to define himself. If he chooses to say, 'well, my gf is masorti, so I guess that means I am too' it can only lead to worse things because now "they are allowed". It's better that he thinks of himself as Orthodox, even if he is doing things that are against Torah. He is still so young - don't make himself box himself, let him stay flexible and iy"H he can feel free to come back.

ITA.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 20 2012, 3:06 am
what a huge issue! I wish you much bina yeseira and strength to deal with it the best you can.

also, I don't think that religion has anything to do with it. as fs pointed out, the actual isser isn't so great, but even in the secular world, there are reasons to save your virginity for the "one and only". I would suggest reading Gila Manolson's book "The Magic Touch" for some pointers and ideas for discussion.
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