Doctored stories | Imamother

withhumor

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 7:28 pm

I can’t tell a story the way it happened, I have this inner urge to spice it up every single time. Call it a blessing, call it a curse but I started getting published and nobody gives a hoot if its true or not, only that’s its hilarious and that they can relate to it. I’ve seen non-fiction books that said ‘based on a true story’, I don’t see why you can’t write something as parve as that.

Ozmom

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 7:43 pm

"based on a true story" is different then telling over a story as if its 100% exact only it isn't.
based on tells us that the story we are reading is merely based on a true story but not the actual story. At that point I usually realise that some of the writers own embellishments or deductions are involved. But in such a case we have been forwarned.

tefila whats the matter? why u confused?

TzenaRena

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 8:40 pm

It depends what the objective of the story is: to give over a historical truth, or to entertain.

The Nsiim of Chabad were very particular to tell a story with exact details. They insisted on total accuracy, including documenting where the story came from. Stories with unverified or contested sources were not relied upon.

Most of the stories about the Rebbeim, or the Avos haChassidus (great chassidim and Tzaddikim) , that the Chassidim give over from generation to generation are culled from the talks or writings of the Rebbeim. They are told with no embellishment, adornment, or even explanation.

Explanations may be given separately, but they are understood as not part of the story.

Others are told, with the source e.g. this particular chossid (name) the son of so and so, heard it from his father,(insert name) or his teacher (insert name) or one of the elder chassidim (insert name) who was a chossid of the Tzemach Tzedek, and heard it directly from the TZ. TZ.

Ozmom

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 9:11 pm

not to entertain but to inspire.

some time ago someone posted a story that I had read almost exactly word for word but with a slight difference.

the story was about a soldier who died al kiddush hashem and in one version he died with shema on his lips and in the other version it didn't have that.

I thought one of 2 things
either: he did say shema but the person writing it forgot to put it in so it was amended on another site
or
He didn't but someone who put the story on their site, decided to spice it up a bit and make it look extra holy by adding in that information

now does it matter? either way he died al kiddush hashem, does it matter whether he really did have shema on his lips or not. He died because he was a jew, and he died in order to save other jewish lives, so does it matter if its not true and they added it in?

Personally, it really bothers me when I find that details in a story thats meant to be true are not exactly as it happened.

some miracle stories, I have found seem to be altered to make them sound more exciting. Mostly the story may be true and accurate, but a detail here and there has been changed or exaggerated.

But if most of the story is true then does it matter?

Ozmom

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 9:33 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

all I know is that the Rebbeim insist on accuracy, and that's not only in stories about the Rebbeim.

Yep

Quote:

I don't like them, because it makes me doubt the rest of the story, I like to get the facts straight

Yep

Do you reckon people who have a reputation for doctoring stories should be exposed?
what about loshon hora?

Do you think there is any point in telling people to stay away from certain types of books or stories that aren't 100% accurate?

who will it harm if they believe those stories?

jewgal84

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 9:35 pm

I think it depends on what you want the story to say.

IMO as long as there are no lies in the stories, and the content is pretty accurate, adding a dash here and there of some spice, shouldn't kill.

When people overdo it with exaggeration- that's what irratates/annoys me.

And anyways sometimes, adding to much comes out tasteless and you forget or get lost from the punchline shock

roza

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 9:44 pm

Quote:

Do you reckon people who have a reputation for doctoring stories should be exposed?

In many cases, yes.

Quote:

what about loshon hora?

what about it?

Quote:

Do you think there is any point in telling people to stay away from certain types of books or stories that aren't 100% accurate?

yes, at least I won't recommend those types of books or stories, not always saying out right to stay away...

Quote:

who will it harm if they believe those stories?

it might turn someone off in the long run...not always, but it can happen...

Ozmom

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:02 pm

jewgal84 wrote:

and how do define what the limit and boundries should be?
Whats to stop a person accustomed to adding a bit of spice to take it a bit further and add in a few more details untill eventually the story becomes something else.

roza wrote:

Quote:
Do you reckon people who have a reputation for doctoring stories should be exposed?

In many cases, yes.
Quote:

what about loshon hora?

what about it?

well will it not be loshon hora to say about such and such a person that they aren't to be trusted with their stories?

Quote:

Quote:

Do you think there is any point in telling people to stay away from certain types of books or stories that aren't 100% accurate?

yes, at least I won't recommend those types of books or stories, not always saying out right to stay away...

ok so see, someone I was discussing this with named a few books with short stories that she said to stay away from. She said the author was notorious for doctoring the stories and changing facts
but the thing is I didn't know the person she was talking about. So its not as if I'm going to see this guy and think ill of him. to me he is just an author on a book, but how about when the person is known? Isn't it wrong to bad mouth them?

Quote:

Quote:
who will it harm if they believe those stories?

it might turn someone off in the long run...not always, but it can happen...

Do you mean it will turn them off if they discover its not 100% accurate?
or do you mean some stories have been so altered that they sound ridiculous in the end and unbelievable so they turn ppl off?

jewgal84

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:11 pm

Quote:

Every storyteller knows their story and should be their judge as to what is necessary to add or sometimes even distract from the actual content.

Like I said over exaggerating isn't necessary either.

Being specific about what the kings crown looked like, or was he riding a black or white horse, I don't think will harm a story.

Ozmom

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:25 pm

jewgal84 wrote:

Every storyteller knows their story and should be their judge as to what is necessary to add or sometimes even distract from the actual content.

jewgal I'm not talking about people telling over their own stories. we have no control over the way people tell over their own stories. I'm talking about people who tell over other peoples stories in publications and such.

Quote:

Like I said over exaggerating isn't necessary either.

Being specific about what the kings crown looked like, or was he riding a black or white horse, I don't think will harm a story.

I'm not talking about such details either. If you read my example given above you will understand what I'm referring to.

amother wrote:

my husband's story is told in a few publications, but only one got the story straight, by interviewing the right people. In the others some facts weren't accurate.(He was born with the bracha of the Lubavitcher Rebbe).

and amother how does that make him feel? how does it make him feel to read his own story thats been altered?

roza

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:35 pm

Quote:

but how about when the person is known? Isn't it wrong to bad mouth them?

yeah, with known ppl (like teachers and mashpiim) I just stick to 'let it be' attitude, "we all human" etc...
but still it's a good question (loshon horah, even if it's true, you are probably not supposed to undermine other's reputation)

Quote:

Do you mean it will turn them off if they discover its not 100% accurate?

yes, like that.
let's take a case of the teenager who has heightened sense of truth, some lies here and there can turned him off from this particular storyteller or teacher, no? he will feel fakeness...he might not be inspire from this and other stories (who knows may be they are lies)

amother

Thu, Nov 23 2006, 10:57 pm

Ozmom wrote:

and amother how does that make him feel? how does it make him feel to read his own story thats been altered?

just a little annoyed. And yes, it joins the ranks of others stories from the same publication, which sometimes prints stories without getting all their facts straight. There are deadlines for magazines. They have to get it out. There isn't always enough time to find out all the facts. Rolling Eyes

TzenaRena

Sun, Nov 26 2006, 2:35 am

About Mesholim, are you saying that you don't like mesholim? or whether doctored stories can be compared to mesholim?

As we know, there are plenty of Mesholim in Torah.

Shlomo Hamelech said three thousand mesholim.Rashi explains that the word alofim means teachings, (as in aalefcha chochma, aalefcha bina), so Shlomo hamelech said three mesholim to give over his teachings.

However, the Medrash says that he said three thousand mesholim on every inyan.

Chassidus explains that when a sechel is very deep, or a very high level, sometimes it is necessary to clothe it in a moshol in order to give it over . Explanation isn't enough, it must undergo a modification to bring it to a lower level to be understood by someone of simpler intelligence.

Shlomo HaMelech's sechel was so deep that in order to be understood by his generation, each inyan had to undergo this adaptation to a lower level ie. a moshol, three thousand times! That is, he said a mashal on a mashal on a mashal, on a mashal, untill after three thousand transformations, it was ready to be understood!

This is brought down in maamorei Chassidus which speak about the Seder Hishtalshelus of the Worlds, whereby the Or Ein Sof, so revealed in the World of Atzilus, goes through infinite contractions (tzimtzumim) and concealments, and yet is the source of, and gives existence and life-force to the physical world .

The three thousand mesholim of Shlomo are a mashal on the transformations that occur in the G-dly Light in order to create and keep the physical world in existence.

And Chassidus is full of meshalim! Which is understandable, when learning about such lofty, G-dly concepts that are above human understanding, with the goal of bringing it down into human understanding.