How are people not grossed out by preparing/cooking meat?

wispalover

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:31 pm

bluebird wrote:

e_plus3 wrote:

I do not buy anything made with leather. I have some old things, and some hand-me-downs, that are leather, and I continue to use them. I don't have sons old enough to wear tefillin so I haven't even thought about that but it's a good way in the future.

Ditto, although I will admit it's hard with shoes.

Re: korbanot. It's not clear that they'll be reinstated. If they are, then I would hope that the coming of Moshiach and recognition and adherence to halacha would put an end to factory farming and other forms of animal cruelty. I still might not eat meat, but would bring korbanot if I had to.

CROCS!!!!!!! I live in them Wink

celestial

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:45 pm

sarahd wrote:

celestial wrote:

sarahd wrote:

celestial wrote:

Hmm, I thought the Torah encouraged us to be aware of what we were eating, and that animals used to be living? I thought living a Torah lifestyle meant trying your best not to be an "insensitive clod"? Forgive me for taking your words at face value, but laughing at the idea of sensitivity does not negate it is an important way to live our lives as servants of Hashem.

Where does the Torah encourage us to be aware that the meat we eat used to be alive? Can you point me to the pasuk?

I don't find it necessary to be more sensitive than Hashem, who created these beings for man to eat (or to bring as korbanos to Him.)

You sort of have to extrapolate it from the way the Torah discusses animals. (And as I said before, this comes from Rav Kook's teachings, I didn't make this up). Rav Kook discusses our many mitzvos related to kashrus have largely to do with instilling an awareness about the source of our food, which will hopefully transform us into better people.

Can you give the passuk that explicitly states 1) That the only reason Hashem created animals was for us to eat 2) That G-d is not sensitive to the suffering of animals or 3) That the overconsumption of meat (not on Shabbos) in the religious community that encourages practices like mass factory farming has anything to do with a sacrifice to G-d?

I can't (or rather, I could for some things but I don't have time right now to do research) but I am not making any of these claims, so I don't feel obligated to support them.

Yes, well, this is rather the point. You absolutely made claim #1, of which there is no substantiative proof that exists in isolation. #3 is quite a wild claim, and one that is needed to connect the dots on your argument. The Rambam and other commentaries on meat consumption have opinions that contradict this view, and there were many shochtim who came from Europe to the US/Canada, saw what was going on with "kosher" factory farming, that it was violating the laws of tzar baalei chaim, and would not touch meat from these places.

#2 is something you have to think long and hard about. Based on what you know about G-d, as kind and loving and merciful, and who wrote a Torah with many mitzvos related to tzar baalei chaim - would this G-d be insensitive to human cruelty towards animals, so that they could cheaply put chicken on their plates every night? If you have no issue with this, I almost feel like we have incompatible conceptions of divinity.

AlwaysGrateful

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:54 pm

ewa-jo wrote:

If I had to make my own leather... skin an animal, tans its hide...etc. then I wouldn't have anything made of leather. Ewwwwww!

I don't see a cow when I look at my purse or my shoes.

I'm conflicted about fur... if I knew that the animal was trapped and killed humanely, then I would prolly wear fur (if I had money for it and if I lived somewhere cold).

Wait, but leather is still animal skin. Wouldn't you be grossed out to wear something made of human skin?

Ah, but you don't view it as animal skin? You view it as leather, a material to make purses and shoes out of? Got it. That's how we view meat.

I also really want to hear your answer to my karbanos question. What do you think? Let's assume that there are karbanos -- which I'm sure is true according to some meforshim.

ora_43

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:14 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Ah, but you don't view it as animal skin? You view it as leather, a material to make purses and shoes out of? Got it. That's how we view meat.

Not me. I eat meat (on Shabbat at least), and I've been on farms, and seen animals killed, and I definitely see meat as animal flesh.

I don't think it's a given that thinking about where meat comes from would make someone feel bad about eating it. Davka the "western" approach of only seeing meat packaged in a store is what's new, the vast majority of people throughout history saw their meat being produced first-hand.

People also just have different levels of sensitivity (/squeamishness) to different things.

celestial

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:16 pm

ora_43 wrote:

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Ah, but you don't view it as animal skin? You view it as leather, a material to make purses and shoes out of? Got it. That's how we view meat.

Exactly! There's a book I'm reading now called Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. It's great.

wispalover

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:36 pm

ewa-jo wrote:

I think anytime an animal is trapped to be killed, by definition this is not humane. I have a HUGE issue with fur- more so than with meat (I am a militant vegetarian I guess!), leather or anything else.
I do not really have anything leather- we all live in crocs- but my understanding is that cows aren't bred for leather. They are bred for meat and the leather is just a side product... admittedly I am also CRAZY about the environment and think that the amount of food and water that is wasted on cows to just kill them for food when there are many other options is disgusting; that is another post though.

As far as fur though, I do not get the purpose of it. I really would literally rather go naked than wear fur, even though I sincerely doubt that is a sight anybody would want to see LOL

I think killing an animal for skin is even crueller than killing them to eat it, and there is so much other stuff out there that we have basically killed off the need for fur- especially in western world where faux fur is easy to get hold of and pretty good quality.

Inspired

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:39 pm

ora_43 wrote:

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Ah, but you don't view it as animal skin? You view it as leather, a material to make purses and shoes out of? Got it. That's how we view meat.

ita

ora_43

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:44 pm

celestial wrote:

Exactly! There's a book I'm reading now called Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. It's great.

I would eat dog. I mean, chv"s that I would eat dog in my current circumstances, what with it being treif and all, but if I were in a situation where I had to for pikuach nefesh I'd go ahead and do it without any sqeamish feelings of "eeeww I'm eating fluffy!"

From your "exactly!" I think maybe I wasn't clear... I'm not saying people have different levels of squeamishness when it comes to different types of meat, although that's true (usually based on what's safe and reasonable to eat in each area - if dogs are plentiful, dog meat is seen as a normal food, if dogs are more lucrative when trained to perform various tasks, they are not seen as sources of meat, if rats in particular carry disease they are seen as too gross to eat, if they're just another animal then they're just another tasty animal, etc).

I'm saying that people have different levels of squeamishness in general. For example, I always found dissections fascinating, while many of my classmates found them gross. Even back when none of us had seen one before to build up a tolerance.

celestial

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:55 pm

ora_43 wrote:

celestial wrote:

Exactly! There's a book I'm reading now called Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. It's great.

I think both are true. The idea that people have different levels of sensitivity in general is what I feel like this post is about to begin with, sans tangents. I agree with regards to pikuach nefesh. I don't really like seeing blood or guts and consider myself sensitive to it, and want to remain that way. However, if a child is bleeding or in serious danger, I wouldn't hesitate to do what needs to be done to care for the child or get them help, and if I needed to eat meat to survive I don't think I would hesitate.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 5:55 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

[b]And now, I have a question for the vegetarians: Don't you care that every time you eat a fruit or vegetable you are killing it?

You tear an apple off a tree. There is an audible snap as the limb holding the child to its parent severs. You bite into the apple. There is a loud crunch as its flesh tears apart. The juices that were carrying nutrients to its heart drip down your hand. You then discard the seeds, the potential life of a baby tree.

You can't hear the apple trees screaming as their babies are taken from them. You can't hear the apple screaming as you rip it apart. But that doesn't mean they aren't screaming.

In every leaf of every plant there is a spark of soul, which you snuff out when you kill it.

If you're OK with eating plants, I don't see why you're not OK with eating animals[/b].

This is a very 'Jain' approach to food. They won't eat anything that kills the plant, for example, root vegetables. And you thought WE were machmir about bugs? They don't even do partial (chazaka) checks.

ewa-jo

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 7:35 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

I also really want to hear your answer to my karbanos question. What do you think? Let's assume that there are karbanos -- which I'm sure is true according to some meforshim.

I'm sure I could eat meat... just a few bites, if I really really needed to.

It would be like swallowing a pill.

I took Chinese herbs in a pill once and they were sooo yucky. The smell would make me gag, so I would take a big swallow of water first and pop the pills while holding my nose and then quickly drink water afterwards.