What is Worse? A Secret Affair or Secret Apikorsus?

black sheep

Mon, Feb 20 2012, 7:27 pm

secretly doing anything that you don't want your spouse to know about is a betrayal. faking frumkeit so your spouse doesn't know your secretly an apikores will be very hurtful when your spouse finds out. but the biggest betrayal is secretly having an affair. obviously. unless you are so religious, that you are more concerned about Hashem's honor than your own, on an emotional level. if so, that's actually really impressive.

yummymummy

Mon, Feb 20 2012, 7:35 pm

OutATowner wrote:

The example given was chillul shabbos. From my understanding, adultery is the same severity. Actually, it is more because it is one of the 3 "ya'harog v'al ya'avor," you should rather be killed than commit adultery.
An true apikores is rare. It's someone who knows every halacha and every part of the Torah and still rejects it.
So if you are saying what's worse- spouse going against you or Hashem, adultery is both, therefore I would be upset about an affair. Also, to be practical, it's a lot easier to find a solution if you are a united front. It's easier to rectify the situation if it wasn't as personal.

The adultery you are referring to is if the wife cheats, but that's not really important here.

I think our misunderstanding is stemming from the example for apikorusu Marina used. I understood the question as "which is worse: someone who rejects G-d (and would therefore not keep any mitzvos - chillul shabbos was just one example) vs. someone who cheats on his wife". It is perfectly possible to cheat on your wife while still believing in G-d and His Torah, just as it's possible to be on facebook on shabbos while still believing in G-d and his Torah. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself well...

Lady Bug

Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:21 pm

I don't think the poll is a good response to the question asked. By apikores you mean someone who denies g-d, right? If he denies g-d's existence, we divorce today. If he had an affair, we see if we can work it out. Using facebook on shabbos would have the same response as an affair.

I voted that an affair is worse than chillul shabbos because that is more emotionally damaging.

marina

Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:36 pm

Lady Bug wrote:

Interesting answer. You would divorce your husband if he denied the existence of God? That is surprising to me. I will start an offshoot poll.

causemommysaid

Mon, Feb 20 2012, 11:51 pm

Merrymom wrote:

Look at the results of this poll and now look at what the Torah allows, the very thing that would be so much worse to us. Amazing.

which is why I say its a good thing I was born in this generation.

If my husband were to ever come home with a second wife from war or something (even though G-d allows it) I would pleasently murder them both at the threshhold.(even though G-d doesnt allow that)

just goes to show that we are just human and we care about our human relationships more than we care about our spiritual one.

grace413

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:58 am

Merrymom wrote:

Look at the results of this poll and now look at what the Torah allows, the very thing that would be so much worse to us. Amazing.

The Torah may have originally allowed men to have more than one wife but today halacha forbids men from having more than one wife.

I don't think any Rav today is going to say that it's ok for a man to have s-xual relations with a woman who is not his wife, even if he is single, let alone if he is married. While a married man with a single woman may not be adultery al pi halacha, that doesn't mean it's allowed.

amother

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:17 am

marina wrote:

I'm having an interesting conversation with some friends about different versions of morality and relativism and so on. This question came up and my position, obviously, is that an affair is much worse. But someone noted that I'm biased because apikorsus is not such a problem for me Wink

So I thought I'd poll you ladies and see what you think.

What's worse for you to find out about your spouse? That he's been cheating on you or that he's been facebooking in the bathroom on shabbos?

I understand that it's a given that you will be upset either way and that both of these are horrible and life altering. I'm just trying to see which is worse from a frum woman's pov.

I would say finding out that he had an affair. I am already living with someone who is doing different things here and there that at mechalel shabbat in secret (like your example of facebooking in the bathroom) so I know just how that feels. And the kicker is, is that I know he is being mechalel shabbat, I even called him on it once and asked him about it, but that conversation went nowhere fast.

I guees right now, my husband's relationship with G-d, is just that, its with g-d, not me.
But if I ever found out that my husband had had an affair, wow, I would would be both extremely saddened and pissed off as well. Because that relationship has not just something but a lot to do with me, not just my husband.

chanchy123

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:24 am

My DH's relationship with Hashem is his business, so violating that relationship would not be a deal breaker in itself (however, it would take a lot of work to make a marriage like this survive and respect on both sides).
However, his relationship with me is my business, so yes, that would definitely be a deal breaker.
This has nothing to do with relative morality.

freidasima

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:34 am

Am I the only one who thinks practically?

If he is sleeping with another woman, single or married, he might bring home an STD to me and I'm then stuck with it for life even if I throw the Son of a B*tc@ out of the house.

If he is mechalel shabbos, his bad. Doesn't affect my body or reproductive system. Can't give me cervical yenner machla. I (capital) won't die from it.

As for the morals of it, as long as it's secret his business in the case of shabbos. The minute anyone knows it is a chillul hashem befarhesiya and that's a new kettle of fish that can affect the entire family. Imagine the gossip.

chanchy123

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:53 am

freidasima wrote:

That's not entirely true halachically, if he is mechalal shabbos you can't enjoy the fruit of his labor and you can't use any dishes he used to cook in on shabbos, so if he's mechalal shabbos but respectful of my keeping shabbos, that would be very sad, but not a deal breaker.

smilethere

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:54 am

I think that if my husband would have an affair there would be an opportunity to work out such a marriage (obviously pending on situations, he might be dead by the time I'm ready to reconcile)

However, if my husband would not believe in the Ribono Shel Oilom, I don't see how long term, I would be able to save my marriage and continue together.

Emotionally, an affair would probably hurt more.

Pashence

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 5:33 am

seriously?? im one of 6 pp who would be more hurt if my husband turned out to be an apikores???

yes an affair would hurt emotionally, but not believing in god and the torah takes it to a whole other level of betrayal and fakeness! thats a HUGE can of worms that would be opened. yikes

Culturedpearls

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 5:38 am

Perhaps an answer may depend on a marriage.
B"H I cannot imagine being in either situation, both would undermine the entire relationship.
If a person feels that they are one neshoma with their spouse both scenarios would be devastating .
I couldn't & didn't vote.

amother

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 5:45 am

Pashence wrote:

good point. but im sad that so many pp would be less perturbed to be living with a mechalel shabbos in a supposedly frum household

I am one of the women who wrote that an affair would be worse because I am already living, soryt of with a mechalel shabbat husband and so I know what I am talking about.
My husband still believes in Hashem, he is just unsure of himself in regard to some mitzvot. He is overall the same man I married and he still has most of the same outlooks on life than he did before this. But if my husband is not doing anything in front of anyone (children) I am ok with it for now. Why? Because to me that in itself means that he is embarrassed with what he is doing and that could mean hopefully coming back completely.