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Would you divorce over chillul shabbos?
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Are you more likely to divorce over chillul shabbos or belief in hashem?
I would probably divorce over chillul shabbos, even if mostly in private, assuming he was not likely to change.  
 21%  [ 23 ]
I would probably divorce over atheism, even if he generally kept mitzvos, assuming he was not likely to change.  
 14%  [ 15 ]
Divorcing over either shabbos or belief in Hashem is not an option. I would work it out, whatever it takes.  
 50%  [ 53 ]
Other, please explain  
 14%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 106



hycup




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:24 am
amother wrote:
I have a close friend who's husband lost his faith. they live in a very frum community, send their children to very black hat schools, yet he (privately) is mechalel shabbos and doesn't pay attention to rules of kashrut. the most difficult time they have is when she is niddah for two weeks, he has no interest in following the rules, and this has caused a lot of tension between them. but she has no plans to leave him, because marriage is not about religion. it plays a large part in a marriage, but if you are willing to divorce over religion, well that tells me that religion is more important to you than your spouse.


Someone mentioned that abuse is the only reason she would get a divorce. I agree, because in principle, abuse is just a severe case of lack of good middos. In the above example, the husband not only lost his faith, but he also lost any good middos he had. He obviously has no respect for his wife and her belief system. And if I were in that situation, and my DH came home saying he didn't believe in Hashem and was no longer going to keep the mitzvos, as long as he still has his great middos (such as respect, kindness, gratitude, etc) I wouldn't divorce him (we have no kids), but if the middos also went out the window, I would get a divorce.

My reasoning is based on chumash and Rabbi Akiva's story: Avraham sent Eliezer to his home town to find a wife for Yitzchok, because even though they were idol worshippers, they had good middos. If you have good middos you will eventually come to recognise Hashem. Even though Rabbi Akiva would curse talmidei chachamim, Rachel saw he had good middos and that's why she agreed to marry him.
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Merrymom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:32 am
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?
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middy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:36 am
Merrymom wrote:
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?


I hear what you are saying, but being divorced causes people to be ostracized too.
If we loved and respected each other, this would not be a reason for me to get divorced.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:37 am
We're on different pages religiously, but I did promise to give him the kind of home he needs in which to feel comfortable and satisfied as an observant Jewish man. He wouldn't divorce me for that, but I could see that, if at some point he really felt his beliefs weren't at all on the same page with mine, he might want a different kind of life. Of course, I hope that doesn't happen.

I was going to tell you a story of a time he caught me breaking a particular rule (because the story makes me laugh) but I realize I might offend people, so I deleted. The upshot is that, at times, he has a good sense of humor about it. Other times, not so much. And I need to be on board for us to be a couple and raise our kids together, so I do try.
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middy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:40 am
Clarissa wrote:
We're on different pages religiously, but I did promise to give him the kind of home he needs in which to feel comfortable and satisfied as an observant Jewish man. He wouldn't divorce me for that, but I could see that, if at some point he really felt his beliefs weren't at all on the same page with mine, he might want a different kind of life. Of course, I hope that doesn't happen.

I was going to tell you a story of a time he caught me breaking a particular rule (because the story makes me laugh) but I realize I might offend people, so I deleted. The upshot is that, at times, he has a good sense of humor about it. Other times, not so much. And I need to be on board for us to be a couple and raise our kids together, so I do try.


This sounds very respectful and loving. I give you a lot of credit.
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Clarissa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 11:57 am
middy wrote:
Clarissa wrote:
We're on different pages religiously, but I did promise to give him the kind of home he needs in which to feel comfortable and satisfied as an observant Jewish man. He wouldn't divorce me for that, but I could see that, if at some point he really felt his beliefs weren't at all on the same page with mine, he might want a different kind of life. Of course, I hope that doesn't happen.

I was going to tell you a story of a time he caught me breaking a particular rule (because the story makes me laugh) but I realize I might offend people, so I deleted. The upshot is that, at times, he has a good sense of humor about it. Other times, not so much. And I need to be on board for us to be a couple and raise our kids together, so I do try.


This sounds very respectful and loving. I give you a lot of credit.
Thank you very much, but I'm afraid I don't deserve it. At times I do feel he's disappointed in me and I can be kind of spunky and opinionated when I don't agree with him. Sometimes it goes smoothly, sometimes not so much.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:07 pm
amother wrote:
Maya wrote:
If the marriage continues to be very loving, stable, and respectful, and if my husband agreed to continue raising the children with religion and not do anything outright against to Torah in front of them, I'd definitely stay with him (if he wanted to stay, of course.)


You realize he wont be able to touch wine, right?

This is one of the funniest comments I've read on here in a while. Really, the wine would be my problem?
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amother


 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:08 pm
My husband doesn't believe in G-d, but is fully observant. It's strange because although he's a BT he has never really believed in G-d He happens to be attracted to order which made him interested in following halacha. I don't think I fully understood the difference in our religious philosophies until we were already married. Although at this point I'm not sure he would be observant had we not met when we did (bad experiences in the frum community were turning him off), he davens 3 times a day, keeps kosher, TM, shabbat, etc without complaint . We don't have children yet, but I am concerned for when we do--he is very adamant in his non-belief and refuses to encourage it in any future children we might have. I want my children to grow up frum believing in Torah and Hashem, the observant part I forsee no problems with--its the belief where I see a problem. Comments like "you don't really believe the sea was split right?" "and" the Torah is just stories written over time by various authors, please tell me you don't really believe this nonsense." And with someone cutting out the underpinning of halacha I am concerned it will be a problem. It's very difficult and stressful, but I would not consider divorce right now because I love him and he's a great husband. He is also careful to not display his beliefs in the general community or even our friends. People who know us think he is a solidly frum guy, smart, very knowledgeable and uncompromising when it comes to halacha.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:08 pm
My husband doesn't believe in G-d, but is fully observant. It's strange because although he's a BT he has never really believed in G-d He happens to be attracted to order which made him interested in following halacha. I don't think I fully understood the difference in our religious philosophies until we were already married. Although at this point I'm not sure he would be observant had we not met when we did (bad experiences in the frum community were turning him off), he davens 3 times a day, keeps kosher, TM, shabbat, etc without complaint . We don't have children yet, but I am concerned for when we do--he is very adamant in his non-belief and refuses to encourage it in any future children we might have. I want my children to grow up frum believing in Torah and Hashem, the observant part I forsee no problems with--its the belief where I see a problem. Comments like "you don't really believe the sea was split right?" "and" the Torah is just stories written over time by various authors, please tell me you don't really believe this nonsense." And with someone cutting out the underpinning of halacha I am concerned it will be a problem. It's very difficult and stressful, but I would not consider divorce right now because I love him and he's a great husband. He is also careful to not display his beliefs in the general community or even our friends. People who know us think he is a solidly frum guy, smart, very knowledgeable and uncompromising when it comes to halacha.
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ElTam




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:09 pm
For all the people saying, "Not in my community B"H," you really, really don't think there are abused and neglected women in YOUR community who are told by family and rabbaim not to divorce because it will be a shanda, that it will affect their siblings' and childrens' shidduchim, that they will be alone forever if they leave him? You really don't think there are women in your community who are working themselves to the bone from 5 a.m. to midnight or more while their husband learns and davens Torah all day but treats his wife like a combination of servant and a shmatta?

I'm not talking about my community as in my physical community, I am talking about my Jewish community. If you think "not by me, B"H" you live in a dream world.
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middy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:19 pm
ElTam wrote:
For all the people saying, "Not in my community B"H," you really, really don't think there are abused and neglected women in YOUR community who are told by family and rabbaim not to divorce because it will be a shanda, that it will affect their siblings' and childrens' shidduchim, that they will be alone forever if they leave him? You really don't think there are women in your community who are working themselves to the bone from 5 a.m. to midnight or more while their husband learns and davens Torah all day but treats his wife like a combination of servant and a shmatta?

I'm not talking about my community as in my physical community, I am talking about my Jewish community. If you think "not by me, B"H" you live in a dream world.


Yeah. When I was getting divorced, my mother told me, can't you just not live in the same house, but don't get DIVORCED, because then everyone will know???
I also couldn't go to her for Shabbos or even a meal when I was divorced because people might SEE!!
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:25 pm
ElTam wrote:
For all the people saying, "Not in my community B"H," you really, really don't think there are abused and neglected women in YOUR community who are told by family and rabbaim not to divorce because it will be a shanda, that it will affect their siblings' and childrens' shidduchim, that they will be alone forever if they leave him? You really don't think there are women in your community who are working themselves to the bone from 5 a.m. to midnight or more while their husband learns and davens Torah all day but treats his wife like a combination of servant and a shmatta?

I'm not talking about my community as in my physical community, I am talking about my Jewish community. If you think "not by me, B"H" you live in a dream world.
I dont live in such a community. I really dont think that there are any men in my community who are learning all day while the wife is working her bones off and there are a few divorced women in my community. Nobody is saying anything to them about why the @#$%^&* did you leave your husband/amrriage. Nobody talks about a shanda in regards to divorced women and their children finding their bashert in my community.
Wow, am I glad that my community is not like that.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:45 pm
Quote:
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?


I guess, while many in the frum community are very concerned with how everyone else perceives them, some people might not actually give a **** about whether judgmental people eat at their house or have narrowminded children over.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:55 pm
marina wrote:
Quote:
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?


I guess, while many in the frum community are very concerned with how everyone else perceives them, some people might not actually give a **** about whether judgmental people eat at their house or have narrowminded children over.


I would be more concerned with my children witnessing outright chillul shabbos. Children often have trouble with nuances.

It would have to be an exceptionally close friend of my child and where the parents are repsectful of my wishes for my children in order for me to really allow it.

I don't consider myself closeminded. Maybe I am...
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 12:58 pm
marina wrote:
Quote:
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?


I guess, while many in the frum community are very concerned with how everyone else perceives them, some people might not actually give a **** about whether judgmental people eat at their house or have narrowminded children over.


Marina, I think you're being unfair.

My DS has a close friend whose parents keep kosher, but are not shomer Shabbat. The boy is always welcome in our home, and the homes of all of their mutual friends, but the kids don't go to that boy's house on Shabbat. We just don't feel comfortable with the fact that the family will be turning lights on and off, have the computer on, etc. Its not judging them. Its just not what we want on Shabbat.

Now, me, I'd also eat at their house. In fact, I have eaten there many times. But I understand that people might say "not up to my standard." Just like MM is saying, "if he doesn't keep kosher, how do I know what he does in their kitchen."

Its not judging others. Its deciding what you want for yourself.
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middy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 1:20 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
marina wrote:
Quote:
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?


I guess, while many in the frum community are very concerned with how everyone else perceives them, some people might not actually give a **** about whether judgmental people eat at their house or have narrowminded children over.


I would be more concerned with my children witnessing outright chillul shabbos. Children often have trouble with nuances.



It would have to be an exceptionally close friend of my child and where the parents are repsectful of my wishes for my children in order for me to really allow it.

I don't consider myself closeminded. Maybe I am...


What if it was a sibling or in law that stopped keeping Shabbos?
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jelly belly




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 1:25 pm
ElTam wrote:
For all the people saying, "Not in my community B"H," you really, really don't think there are abused and neglected women in YOUR community who are told by family and rabbaim not to divorce because it will be a shanda, that it will affect their siblings' and childrens' shidduchim, that they will be alone forever if they leave him? You really don't think there are women in your community who are working themselves to the bone from 5 a.m. to midnight or more while their husband learns and davens Torah all day but treats his wife like a combination of servant and a shmatta?

I'm not talking about my community as in my physical community, I am talking about my Jewish community. If you think "not by me, B"H" you live in a dream world.


I dunno. I live in a small community, and the rabbanim are people I truly respect as intelligence, considerate people. I have not heard of anyone here receiving that kind of advice. Are there women who are not treated as they should be? I'm sure. But that is not unique to the Jewish community, and it is not condoned here by a long shot. Are there idiotic family members who give idiotic advice? Sure. Again, that is not unique to the Jewish community, and it is not what our rabbanim advise at all.

I believe there are communities in which the rabbanim and the community members have values and priorities that are contrary to what G-d and the Torah *really* want from us. I distance myself from those places and the people associated with them.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 1:53 pm
middy wrote:
saw50st8 wrote:
marina wrote:
Quote:
I know of a couple that lives this way. I will never ever eat over in her house nor will allow my child to go there without my supervision or on Shabbos (dh doing as he pleases, no Shabbos atmosphere at all). This is despite the fact that my friend believes she keeps a kosher kitchen. Maybe she does, but I don't know what he does to traif it up when she's not around. Nor am I willing to allow my child to witness outright chilul Shabbos from a supposed frum family.

Are you willing to be ostracized like this?


I guess, while many in the frum community are very concerned with how everyone else perceives them, some people might not actually give a **** about whether judgmental people eat at their house or have narrowminded children over.


I would be more concerned with my children witnessing outright chillul shabbos. Children often have trouble with nuances.



It would have to be an exceptionally close friend of my child and where the parents are repsectful of my wishes for my children in order for me to really allow it.

I don't consider myself closeminded. Maybe I am...


What if it was a sibling or in law that stopped keeping Shabbos?


Would I send my kids to a sibling/inlaw for Shabbos that stopped keeping shabbos? Depends on how respectful they are about my wishes.

Some sibligns/inlaws are trustworthy, others are not.
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middy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 2:16 pm
saw50st8 wrote:


Would I send my kids to a sibling/inlaw for Shabbos that stopped keeping shabbos? Depends on how respectful they are about my wishes.

Some sibligns/inlaws are trustworthy, others are not.


True. I have this issue a lot. I find it easier to explain people who aren't FFB, as opposed to people who were frum and are no longer shomer shabbos. (all family members)
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wereafamily




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:05 pm
Inspired wrote:
wereafamily wrote:
I never thought about this before, but I am shocked at how many of you consider it an option to stay married...How can you be married to someone who disagrees with you on the most central aspect of life?
(you make it sound like being Jewish is just a "by the way" in your marriage, almost like what you do with your toothpaste tube -roll or squeeze it.)

Hashem does not say one is michuyav to divorce over yddishkeit. It does not say that the mizbayach isn't crying. Nowhere does it say one is michuyav to get divorced over religion. The shechina still dwells where there is shalom bayis. Having an intact respectful union of 2 halves of a neshama is still a huge priority. The person was your zivug, the other half of your neshama before they had issues of belief andd/ or taivah and now that they have those issues they suddenly stopped being your zivug? It seems like you are making bitachon and other things very "by the way" in your life. Hashem gave a person a particular spouse and particular circumstances and one has to try to live in that situation to the best of their abilities. The best of their abilities may be not to run away but to work through that situation.


Reading the past few pages in this forum, I see many people have agreed that they would get divorced for "abuse, addiction or an affair" - so what ever happened to bitachon/zivug/mizbeyach there?

Sure, you should try to work it out... but I think this vote was if you see that you can't change him.
What I find so surprising and shocking is, that for an OTD-DH you would stay but for for an "AAA"-DH you would run away.

I don't have kids yet so I don't know. But I'm just thinking...
If you're truly being honest with yourself, and staying for the sake of your children, isn't it a lot simpler to hide addiction or an affair than OTD?
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