"7 Myths of Working Mothers"

mumsy23

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 10:47 pm

Tefila wrote:

Quote:

I find it very interesting that the same women who preach about being a SAHM are also the same ones that vehemently argue against college! (And yes, college doesn't guarantee a parnassa, but PT, OT, and SLP college usually (read 99%) does!)

Don't you think that is a)a huge generalization Confused

and b) perhaps there may be truth to what they say Wink

I'm not sure what part of the post you find to be a generalization. If it about the preaching to be a SAHM, then no, because I see who on this website is against college and a lot of those same women are against full-time working moms. So no, not a generalization at all. And if it is about OTs, PTs and SLPs making good money and working little, I also do not feel that that is a generalization. I have yet to see an OT, PT or SLP that cannot find a well paying job. In fact, I am in grad school for one of these right now and our teachers always tell us "For everyone of you, there are 5 jobs waiting out there- so be picky!"

Tefila

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 10:50 pm

Quote:

I have seen countless children being raised by nannies while their mothers worked and fathers learned and those children turned out to be nice, well-adjusted frum people who went on to have the same life-style as their parents. so, who knows?

You know a) who knows how truly adjusted they are and b) I think it's tragic for both the mother not being able to nurture her child, and the child not always having a mother. Crying

Yes I know my situation is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from ideal, but I am not going to fool myself and say it is just fine Exclamation

mumsy23

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 10:52 pm

Tefila wrote:

Quote:

You know a) who knows how truly adjusted they are and b) I think it's tragic for both the mother not being able to nurture her child, and the child not always having a mother. Crying

Yes I know my situation is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from ideal, but I am not going to fool myself and say it is just fine Exclamation

I hear that. I don't know. Like I said, I aim to be home with my children but I'm still on the fence about the issue theoretically.

HealthCoach

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 11:16 pm

I am a mother of 6 ka"h. I do the job of a SAHM and work full time. I have spent many hours thinking about this topic, discussing it with other working mothers who have similar jobs to mine, and I have come to the same conclusion as the author with one major difference.

It's the career that suffers and not the family.

I am always complimented on how well taken care of my children are in every way, and what a terrific job I am doing on them. At work, though, there are people performing much better than me. They can stay late at work, and spend their nights doing research. Sometimes I wish I could be doing those things, but I know the nights belong to my family.

anon

Sun, Dec 03 2006, 11:39 pm

I am on par with Mumsy23.....that while my gut feelings says it's best to stay home, I can't say that children of full-time working mothers are any worse off. I see both sides of the argument.

However, what I do know is that I would be miserable working full-time. I can't say that I'll never have to, because that's up to Hashem. But I hope I won't have to, since it's my innate desire to want to raise my children properly, and not leave the job to someone else. And if chas v'shalom any of my children should grow up with any problems, I would not want to have guilt trips that it's because I wasn't around enough. So in a way, my strong views on staying home are not all for the sake of my children....some of it is based on my own selfish needs. Nevertheless, I do not feel guilty about these selfish motherly needs, because I understand that this is the way Hashem created the female nature.

shininglight

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 3:16 am

I'm a better mother BECAUSE I work. I know other people out there that are like me, too. And there are plenty more jobs that can be done part-time, from home, that are lucrative - AND you don't even have to have a college degree. You take some courses and if you're good at what you do, that's what counts.

For example - computer programming, website design or maintenence, graphic design, medical billing, medical transcripting, etc.

(Now that I think about it, I guess the reason these things are lucrative in my mind is because you can do them from Israel and earn close to an American salary. But I guess if you're in America already, these positions are not the lucrative ones?)

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 10:20 am

Quote:

I find it very interesting that the same women who preach about being a SAHM are also the same ones that vehemently argue against college!

Well, it is not surprising, it is a whole state of mind (like people who are for Israel are generally for America, it surprises no one).

Now, I happen to be very pro going to (a clean, “only here to learn”) college, and also very pro being a SAHM unless it deprives the family. My mother is the same, and she's probably even more for college than me.

Now, I also see a huge difference between someone who works when the child is already in school, and someone who works when the child is 2 or 3 months old (as it seems to be the majority where I live).

I have lived the two situations (as the child, not the mother). My mother used to be a SAHM, the kind who did really nothing beside being with me, playing with me, taking me to go out…
when I was 3 I went to kindergarten only in the morning, then I spent the rest of the day with my mom. When I was 4 I already had to be in kindergarten until 4 pm. The “mommy only” rhythm was lost.

So when she started working (I was 5 or 6, can’t remember for sure), it only made a difference of a few hours (go out of school, stay with dad a few hours, mommy there). Of course it is an adjustment, and according to my mom it took me a few days, almost a week, to really adjust (= understand the concept of going to work, not ask where mom is constantly...). Now, the situation was a bit different from the norm, as when she started working, dad stopped. I can see it be more difficult with a nanny.

roza

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 11:25 am

Motek wrote:

Quote:

The thesis of this book is simple: women can have it all, but not necessarily at the same time. That is, a woman can choose to excel at motherhood, or she can choose to excel at a career, but she cannot do both simultaneously.

Quote:

Indeed, the term "working mother" in this regard is misleading. If a mother chooses a full-time paid career, she is basically leaving the job of mothering to someone else. She is paying someone else to mother her children.

Quote:

The basic premise is that raising children is a full-time job ... therefore, being successful in the workplace and at home simultaneously is impossible. This is not anti-feminist nor is it a matter of one's politics. It's just a fact.

http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Wo.....26538

I just want to clarify, does she make a distinction between the ages of children in case? Are we talking about a mother with babies and toddlers? Mother of preschoolers? Mother of school age children? Because it's not news and many women do it, they put their careers on some hold while the children are very little. What does the author say about women with school age children?

The book is not about not having career, it's about not having it at the same time while the children are little. I totally agree. But this book will not work for frum mothers.
And I also pity those women who have to work long hours and for a little salary, bec. they have to pay bills and tution, when with some training in IT they could of make much more for less time.

Flowerchild

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 11:41 am

I think that when children are small babies untill the age of 2 mothers should stay home and take care of them, but when children start going to school for a full day from 8-4 or earlier then I see no problem for women to work. there are jobs out there that fit in the time frame when the kids are in school. I dont think that working will necessarily take away from raising children, kids need a parent who they know they can rely on and come for help to and love, and guidence. if a mother is working but she is always available to the child I dont see the issue at all. the way that the parent relates to their children is important. if you are going for a CEO position then yeah sure it will def. take away from your family, but if you are working in an office, teach, and the jobs sthillmom mentioned then there really is no problem. also there is nothing wrong for a woman to want to explore herself by working, when kids grow up what is there to do in an empty home? working also gives you a sense of independence, and security. you can have a mother who stays home and hates it and the kids are miserable, you can have a mom who works and kids are happy and normal and vice versa.

happymom

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 12:20 pm

yup. and it makes alot of sense. its impossible to put your heart and soul into two places at once. one is gonna suffer. ppl have to choose whats iportant and put everything thyve got into it.

Quote:

think that when children are small babies untill the age of 2 mothers should stay home and take care of them, but when children start going to school for a full day from 8-4 or earlier then I see no problem for women to work.

I agree. as long as the mom is home when kids are, with dinner ready since kids are starving when they come home from school (at least I always was and really appreciated the dinner being ready....)

JRKmommy

Mon, Dec 04 2006, 12:28 pm

My basic thoughts:

1. It's very PC to make a distinction between those who "have to" work and those that "want to" - but really, how honest is it to do so? If working creates issues, it will create them regardless of the reason for working. The only thing that would be different would be the risk/benefit ratio - since "not being able to pay the rent" would be a bigger risk of not working than "not being able to afford bigger house", for example.

2. I also think that it makes more sense to look at what both parents are doing 24/7, vs. what just mom is doing Mon-Fri, 9-5.

3. I think that you need to look at what the parent is doing when they are with the child, and all activities (paid or not) which may take away the parent's attention from the child. Working at home may not be totally wonderful if the parent/child interaction consists of telling a child to keep away and be quiet, and keeping a spotless home may be less than wonderful if it takes away time that could otherwise be spent with children.

4. Finally, you need to consider what sort of effect the care by others has on the children. Some kids thrive in good nursery schools. Other kids may be cared for by caregivers that are sub-par. It makes a huge difference.

5. I think many women would tell you that they will deprive themselves before they deprive their children, time-wise.

I still have vivid memories of what it was like to work a demanding job full-time starting when my oldest was 7 mos. When she was 11 mos, I did a major trial while she developed a fever from some virus. I was nursing her while typing out my submissions, running to the hospital on Sunday, staying up most of the night to finish and settle my dd, doing the trial during the day and then nursing my dd all night. She got plenty of mommy cuddles and nursing, we got the trial done - and I barely slept.

mumsy23

Tue, Dec 05 2006, 12:52 pm

Motek wrote:

healthymama wrote:

So what ? Even if she can't excel, she can still be good enough. What difference does it make in the long run ?

I sure I'm glad my mother didn't opt to be a "good enough mother." The view that being a "good enough mother" is good enough sounds extremely sad to me. To question what difference it makes whether a mother raises her children or someone else does, sounds quite insulting to the "institution of motherhood."

Healthymama was referring to the working aspect. So what to not exelling in her job. Even if she can't excel she can still be good enough AT HER JOB. Her point was, what difference does it make if she is mediocre at her job, as long as she is a good mother!

amother

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 12:33 pm

some of u ladies seem a bit obsessed with telling all the working moms about their inherent evils....firstly, what are u ppl doing in the Working Moms section? I thought that the purpose of this section was so that working moms could interact without being judged or criticized for working.
secondly, um hello im sure many of us working moms (though not all of course) are not too happy with our situation! my G-d do u have to rub it in? I am doing my best. I am relatively newly married and my hubby learned for the first year and a half or so of our marraige, so I had to work to bring in an income. now he went to work and I am hoping to stop working full time as soon as he makes enough money to support our basic needs (rent food nothing too demanding) and I will probably still have to work part time to help support since no he is not making tons of moola just yet--though IY"H Beezrat Hashem I hope soon he will. but at least it wont be full time work for me! do u think I dont want to be with my baby? do u think I feel good about it? do u think I dont love him and wish I could spend more time with him? what do u think--that all working moms are working because they "feel like it" or whatever? maybe I have no choice! obviously some women do work because they "feel like it" but im not referring to those women right now. yay for you that your husband makes a good enough parnassah, why do u have to make me feel so bad about the fact that just right now my husband doesnt bring in enough money for me to stop working yet...? I personally think the whole kollel thing is really screwed up--why should all the women have to work and dump their kids on babysitters while their hubbies learn? I do not believe that this is what G-d intended for the Jewish ppl...but this is my reality, this is the man I fell in love with and married and still love to pieces despite the fact that he wanted to start out marraige learning with no concrete career plans. trust me ppl I hate having to work full time and leave my baby at the sitter....but this is my reality and I am trying to make peace with it. I dotn know why u ppl feel like u have to make all working moms feel like the worst ppl ever while u sit there in ur happy little home with ur kids-yay 4 u

HealthCoach

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 2:40 pm

amother, this thread started out somewhere else (maybe in controversial topics) and was moved here, probably to give working mothers the opportunity to respond. While originally I thought it was a good idea, I now believe that it belongs in a SAHM section, and it is not meant for working mothers to read at all. Everyone needs to do what works for them. While it may be ideal for each mother to stay at home with their family, not everyone can, and there are no lasting effects on the children. I think the SAHM must feel that her kids need her, and that need cannot be met if she worked. I don't think anyone can comment on the ability of a working mother to raise a family, unless they have tried doing it. Even then, maybe some women can do it, and some can't. While I am not unhappy about being a working mother, I sincerely hope you can stop working soon, since that is what you want. In the meantime, as long as you do special things with your husband and children you will be fine. I like to collect good happy family memories, and that is what your kids will remember.

healthymama

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 2:51 pm

I meant good enough mother, but the truth is that the person will probably be mediocre across the board. You cannot really excel at several things at a time. My point is that being an average, mediocre mom is good enough for the majority of kids. And no, I don't believe in the institution of motherhood. Kids need to be loved, to be cared for, to have their emotional and physical needs met and if that person is a father or another relative or just someone who loves kids, the child does not necessarily suffer.

I think the whole concept of the institution of motherhood is very cultural and era-based. In previous generations, wealthy children were cared for by nannies and governesses and they saw their mother at social events. Remember Gone With the Wind ? That kind of society. I can't really say that they all turned out to be messed up, can you ?

Crayon210

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 2:53 pm

amother wrote:

amother, I can only speak for myself, but obviously if you're working to pay the rent and put food on the table, then you're not a "career woman" who thinks she can have it all. I'm sure your baby is 'aware' that you are working for the money and not for the luxuries: because I'm sure your focus is on your family, and your job is just a way to make the money you need.

I was not referring to you in any of my posts, so please do not take offense.