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Binah article about a teen with an ipod
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 1:34 pm
mamommommy wrote:
amother wrote:
Here's a true story about a teenage girl who spent enormous amounts of time on the internet. She was 'addicted' to several Harry Potter websites. She would write HP fanfiction during boring classes in school, participate in HP forums rather than study for tests on subjects that bored her...


I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no understanding of what an addiction or a compulsive-impulsive behavior is. Some of the characteristics include: 1) excessive use/engagement, often associated with a loss of sense of time or a neglect of basic drives, 2) withdrawal, including feelings of anger, tension, and/or depression when the activity/item is inaccessible, 3) tolerance, including the need for more of the item or activity, and 4) negative repercussions, including arguments, lying, poor achievement, social isolation, and fatigue.
I think most people realize that it's not the same thing as simply giving in to a craving and binging on a box of cookies.

I'm sure it's likely that the term "addiction" is being thrown around and used inappropriately, but these addictions (or compulsive behaviors) truly exist are are not uncommon in the frum community or in the world at large. The fact that it's an over-used word doesn't actually mean that people truly believe that something that's called an 'addiction' in conversation is really an illness. Just like people will call someone OCD if they like things very clean when it is very obvious that the person does not truly have a mental disorder.

I wish someone would could post the original article. I'm so curious to read it.


1) Yes, I was on the internet to the point where I'd skip meals, delay using the bathroom and delay sleep.
2) Yes, I experienced feelings of withdrawal during the school day when I could not access the internet, or on vacations when I didn't have access.
3) I happily was online for 6 hours or more every evening.
4) Wouldn't you argue that not paying attention during class, not studying for tests, skipping family meals a few times a week, being on the internet instead of talking to friends, are all negative repercussions?

And yet. I stopped spending so much time online (without any outside intervention) and have been too busy since to spend so much time online ever since. That particular 'addiction' filled a gap in my life that has since been filled by other things. Are you saying that if I was truly addicted today then I would ignore my children when they cried, ignore my DH when he asked for relations, not cook suppers, never do laundry, never leave the house? If that is what constitutes internet/[filth]/whatever addiction, we'd have a lot less people crying 'my DH is addicted' or 'my teen daughter is addicted.'

Because of course, there's always the other side of the coin, where I was off the internet for several days in a row because I found a good book, or where I went out with friends instead of rushing home to be on the computer, or where I studied voluntarily for tests in subjects I enjoyed.

Of course addiction exists. But if it is truly such an all-consuming mental condition as you make it out to be, there are very, very few people with a true addiction. Most people have the 'eating half a box of cookies' type of internet addiction rather than the 'ignore my crying child' internet addiction - wouldn't you agree?
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 3:27 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new......html

people are indeed addicted to the internet.

And not being able to stop eating cookies is an addiction. To food. There are actually some people who can say no to those cookies. You know, those size 2s out there. Not me, but they exist.
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MrsDash




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 3:41 pm
For someone who has the computer running most of the day (Not that I'm on it all day. It just happens to always be on, which gives me the ability to pop online whenever.) I gotta admit that when I didn't use a computer for a few days I was quite relieved, and relaxed. I didn't miss it for a moment. Oh wait, there was ONE time when I couldn't think of the name of a specific actor, and I wasn't able to check online. Oh the misery! (It was Judd Hirsch- But for the life of me I couldn't remember his name!)

If those cookies are samoas, there is no way I could ever turn those down! mmm
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 4:36 pm
I'm going to address this from a writing perspective rather than discuss whether the protagonist had a true "addiction" or not.

For a number of years, I taught English/writing at post-secondary schools of various types. There is a running joke among college writing teachers: more teenagers are killed by freshman essay assignments every year than by auto accidents.

Huh? Here's the situation: ask a class of 30 freshman students to write an essay about a memorable experience or something meaningful in their lives, and a significant percentage will write about their best friends' dying in car accidents (usually caused by a drunk driver, thus making said freshman opposed to drunk driving, as if this were a controversial stand). The best friends who don't meet their end in a fiery crash often succumb to terminal illnesses. Whatever their causes of demise, these deaths always result in epiphanies regarding the value of life and the importance of making each day count. Occasionally, for a bit of variety, grandparents or other significant figures are killed off. But rest assured, the mortality rate for the friends and family of students taking freshman comp is quite astonishing.

Of course, not all students see the need for such high drama in their essays, and they turn in lovely little reflections on what they learned at band camp or the time the hamster got loose in the laundry room.

The problem for teachers is that the essays in which friends and relatives are mercilessly killed off often are more dramatic and allow for more intensity. The fact that they are untrue -- we know this because there would only be about 100,000 teenagers left in the country if they weren't -- makes them no less interesting. Teachers have to remind themselves that drama does not necessarily equal good writing.

The same is true for articles in the Jewish media. I don't know whether any given story is "true" or not, but the consistent ramping-up of the drama factor tends to bring out my suspicious inner English teacher. However, I'm sure the editors regularly kill stories with themes like, "I spend too much time on imamother except when I'm busy with something else," which doesn't make chills run down the reader's spine. Or "I spent a lot of time listening to my IPOD during a rough period in my life, and it would have probably been better if I'd had a more Torah-oriented form of escape," which is likewise lacking a spine-tingling quality.

BTW, HP Amother, I personally think fanfic is the absolute best way to teach/learn writing out there, and you probably benefited a lot more from writing fanfic than whatever was going on in class! Seriously, if I were put in charge of teaching writing somewhere, I'd tell everybody to select their favorite books, movies, or TV shows and have at it.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 4:42 pm
Oh, and I stopped reading Binah when they profiled ways to save money on chassunahs a few years back: among a number of equally-useful suggestions, they promoted the idea of renting/borrowing sisters' gowns -- which can cost as little as $800 for alterations and fees.

I told my DDs that the only time any of us need to wear an $800+ gown is if we're in a position to hug Julia Roberts, hoist our statuette aloft, and thank the members of the Academy.
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MrsDash




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 5:03 pm
Fox wrote:
Oh, and I stopped reading Binah when they profiled ways to save money on chassunahs a few years back: among a number of equally-useful suggestions, they promoted the idea of renting/borrowing sisters' gowns -- which can cost as little as $800 for alterations and fees.

I told my DDs that the only time any of us need to wear an $800+ gown is if we're in a position to hug Julia Roberts, hoist our statuette aloft, and thank the members of the Academy.


Wow! That's crazy!
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mamommommy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 7:26 pm
amother wrote:
mamommommy wrote:
amother wrote:
Here's a true story about a teenage girl who spent enormous amounts of time on the internet. She was 'addicted' to several Harry Potter websites. She would write HP fanfiction during boring classes in school, participate in HP forums rather than study for tests on subjects that bored her...


I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no understanding of what an addiction or a compulsive-impulsive behavior is. Some of the characteristics include: 1) excessive use/engagement, often associated with a loss of sense of time or a neglect of basic drives, 2) withdrawal, including feelings of anger, tension, and/or depression when the activity/item is inaccessible, 3) tolerance, including the need for more of the item or activity, and 4) negative repercussions, including arguments, lying, poor achievement, social isolation, and fatigue.
I think most people realize that it's not the same thing as simply giving in to a craving and binging on a box of cookies.

I'm sure it's likely that the term "addiction" is being thrown around and used inappropriately, but these addictions (or compulsive behaviors) truly exist are are not uncommon in the frum community or in the world at large. The fact that it's an over-used word doesn't actually mean that people truly believe that something that's called an 'addiction' in conversation is really an illness. Just like people will call someone OCD if they like things very clean when it is very obvious that the person does not truly have a mental disorder.

I wish someone would could post the original article. I'm so curious to read it.


1) Yes, I was on the internet to the point where I'd skip meals, delay using the bathroom and delay sleep.
2) Yes, I experienced feelings of withdrawal during the school day when I could not access the internet, or on vacations when I didn't have access.
3) I happily was online for 6 hours or more every evening.
4) Wouldn't you argue that not paying attention during class, not studying for tests, skipping family meals a few times a week, being on the internet instead of talking to friends, are all negative repercussions?

And yet. I stopped spending so much time online (without any outside intervention) and have been too busy since to spend so much time online ever since. That particular 'addiction' filled a gap in my life that has since been filled by other things. Are you saying that if I was truly addicted today then I would ignore my children when they cried, ignore my DH when he asked for relations, not cook suppers, never do laundry, never leave the house? If that is what constitutes internet/[filth]/whatever addiction, we'd have a lot less people crying 'my DH is addicted' or 'my teen daughter is addicted.'

Because of course, there's always the other side of the coin, where I was off the internet for several days in a row because I found a good book, or where I went out with friends instead of rushing home to be on the computer, or where I studied voluntarily for tests in subjects I enjoyed.

Of course addiction exists. But if it is truly such an all-consuming mental condition as you make it out to be, there are very, very few people with a true addiction. Most people have the 'eating half a box of cookies' type of internet addiction rather than the 'ignore my crying child' internet addiction - wouldn't you agree?


First of all, being on the internet instead of going to a boring class or being on the internet instead of studying for a boring subject would not be indicative of an addiction. Those are normal avoidance behaviors that we all do every day. For example, I check imamother whenever I have report to write that I don't feel like doing, or a load of laundry that I wish would fold itself, and can easily be on for an hour or more to avoid those things.

Additionally, addiction is not independently related to the number of hours that once spends engaged in an activity (although that is often a warning sign). As another poster wrote, she is on the computer hours and hours a day and actually feels relief, not anxiety, when she is not engaged in it.

Honestly, it really doesn't sound like you had an addiction but that you simply did those things out of boredom, and when you found a more interesting activity (like a good book or an interesting subject) or when the excitement of it wore off, you were able to stop.

Psychologically speaking, right now the only thing that is classified as a true "addiction" is substance abuse. When people are talking about other types of addictions, they are really talking about compulsive behaviors, when basically a person experiences significant anxiety unless they are acting on their compulsions (compulsive-shopping, compulsive-eating, compulsive-gambling would be some examples of this). This occurs on a continuum where some people may experience greater anxiety and others less, but it's certainly reasonable to think of it as occurring along the same spectrum.

I'm sure that there are quite a few people (probably even ones that you know well) who can be described as experiencing quite a bit of anxiety if they were not allowed to check their blackberry every minute, or when they don't have access to the internet for a day. Whether or not they meet the threshold of a true "addiction" can be argued, but the underlying compulsion is there.

Again, I'm not denying that it's probably an overused excuse for engaging in behaviors that we deem inappropriate, but we shouldn't label people as simply having no self-control when it's equally likely that they are functioning within the spectrum of a compulsive behavior.
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 7:37 pm
I didn't read the entire thread but I think you may be amazed at how many of our "frum" teens cannot go through shabbos w/o their internet.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 8:16 pm
Fox wrote:
I'm going to address this from a writing perspective rather than discuss whether the protagonist had a true "addiction" or not.

For a number of years, I taught English/writing at post-secondary schools of various types. There is a running joke among college writing teachers: more teenagers are killed by freshman essay assignments every year than by auto accidents.

Huh? Here's the situation: ask a class of 30 freshman students to write an essay about a memorable experience or something meaningful in their lives, and a significant percentage will write about their best friends' dying in car accidents (usually caused by a drunk driver, thus making said freshman opposed to drunk driving, as if this were a controversial stand). The best friends who don't meet their end in a fiery crash often succumb to terminal illnesses. Whatever their causes of demise, these deaths always result in epiphanies regarding the value of life and the importance of making each day count. Occasionally, for a bit of variety, grandparents or other significant figures are killed off. But rest assured, the mortality rate for the friends and family of students taking freshman comp is quite astonishing.

Of course, not all students see the need for such high drama in their essays, and they turn in lovely little reflections on what they learned at band camp or the time the hamster got loose in the laundry room.

The problem for teachers is that the essays in which friends and relatives are mercilessly killed off often are more dramatic and allow for more intensity. The fact that they are untrue -- we know this because there would only be about 100,000 teenagers left in the country if they weren't -- makes them no less interesting. Teachers have to remind themselves that drama does not necessarily equal good writing.

The same is true for articles in the Jewish media. I don't know whether any given story is "true" or not, but the consistent ramping-up of the drama factor tends to bring out my suspicious inner English teacher. However, I'm sure the editors regularly kill stories with themes like, "I spend too much time on imamother except when I'm busy with something else," which doesn't make chills run down the reader's spine. Or "I spent a lot of time listening to my IPOD during a rough period in my life, and it would have probably been better if I'd had a more Torah-oriented form of escape," which is likewise lacking a spine-tingling quality.

BTW, HP Amother, I personally think fanfic is the absolute best way to teach/learn writing out there, and you probably benefited a lot more from writing fanfic than whatever was going on in class! Seriously, if I were put in charge of teaching writing somewhere, I'd tell everybody to select their favorite books, movies, or TV shows and have at it.

I don't think the death rate is that far out. Death is pretty intense, so it makes sense that it makes an impression on people and they will want to write it out. And teenagers/adolescents are very sensitive to these kinds of profound things so it doesn't need to be their best friend in order for them to feel affected by it. And nobody has exclusive rights to write about anyone's death. So the statistic you're conjuring would only be true if each writer were writing about a DIFFERENT death, which would involve killing off a lot of people, yes. But let's assume that every teenager who dies of illness, accident/injury, suicide, or whatever has about 20 classmates who felt the event was quite close to home. Depending on the size of their school, you could have an additional 20-80 grade-mates, many of whom would also have been classmates either in electives, previous years, whatever. Then there are those in other grades in the same school, let's assume it was in high school, I know I felt quite shaken and began to ponder mortality and such very deeply when a girl in my school whom I'd only met once or twice died suddenly, teenagers can be like that. So figure another several hundred kids. She went to summer camp - hundreds more kids. Then there's family/relatives, neighbors, extracurricular club members, former babysitters, siblings' close friends, figure another hundred or so all together. Then if the death was dramatic enough there will be a few exceptionally sensitive kids who just have to read about it in the news or hear about it in the gossip mill to get shaken by it. So for each teenager who dies, particularly if they do it with some flair, you have potentially up to a thousand people who could write about it if they feel so inclined. Now, not all of them will, but we can assume that there is a lot of overlap and rather than calculating one dead peer for everyone who writes about the death of a peer, it's probably more like one dead peer for every hundred who write about a death. Add to that the fact that death in general is a very common life-cycle occurrence, and many will be writing about the death of a parent, grandparent, or other relative rather than a peer, and it doesn't sound so outrageous at all that so many people are writing about death. Factor in that the assignment isn't required to be about something that happened that week, if the average freshman age is 18 then it's not nearly as surprising that over the last 13 years someone has passed from the life of most students.

But I digress. I think you're taking the wrong angle here. This is about the choice of what to print. Everyone knows the "man bites dog" technique of journalism. There happen to be a lot of lovely little musing articles with themes like "I procrastinate sometimes and should probably shape up" or even "I procrastinate sometimes and accept this about myself as part of what I need to stay relaxed." But yes, the big dramatic feature article is going to be about a more dramatic case. If they were saying "Every teen is having existential crises due to the existence of ipods" then I could see the comparison to your example of every teen having a best friend who died (or, better, was tragically murdered.) But they're not saying that. They're saying "here is a dramatic story of a person in an extreme situation."
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 8:37 pm
grin wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread but I think you may be amazed at how many of our "frum" teens cannot go through shabbos w/o their internet.


I am not sure its cannot. I think many DON'T WANT TO stop using the internet. That's a major distinction.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 8:47 pm
Fox, forgive me but the only reason students write such essays for their comp classes is because comp classes are an idiotic idea. Give them something interesting to ponder, to ruminate, to reflect upon, and the writing will come. A class devoted solely to grammar and composition is bound to be torture for EVERYONE.

A comp class, which used to be called Logic and Rhetoric and is now called University Writing, is part of Columbia's Core Curriculum. I think it is safe to say that no class, including orgo, inflicted such torment on unsuspecting souls. There was zero substance. There was nothing to discuss. The essays had to be pulled out of us with forceps. Our grades were artificially lowered at the beginning of the semester to make it look like we'd all made "progress."

These classes are not necessary, and in fact cannot help anyone for whom they are necessary. Grammar must be taught much, much earlier than that. Good writing comes primarily from good reading. None of this stuff can be taught in a semester, and the habits of organized thought and clear expression can't be taught at all.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 9:19 pm
the tone of the article was so annoyingly self righteous, that I highly doubt the veracity of the details. Here's the first paragraph following the intro:

"At first the idea horrified me. Although my mother had no idea, I was very aware of its capabilities and I wanted no part in this dangerous piece of technology. But I could not resist. And, after all, I reasoned, if my parents had given it to me, they probably knew what they were doing."
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 9:41 pm
amother wrote:
the tone of the article was so annoyingly self righteous, that I highly doubt the veracity of the details. Here's the first paragraph following the intro:

"At first the idea horrified me. Although my mother had no idea, I was very aware of its capabilities and I wanted no part in this dangerous piece of technology. But I could not resist. And, after all, I reasoned, if my parents had given it to me, they probably knew what they were doing."
OK, granted that does sound corny. I could believe it, though, if it said "At first I had reservations about the idea. I'd heard about the dangers of technology and knew that it was discouraged for good reason. Yet I was attracted by the interesting features, and since it came from my parents it was so easy to rationalize."
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groisamomma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 9:42 pm
Every time I hear about another inane Binah article I thank Hashem that I don't buy it. No sense getting all riled up by a paper that looks to create sensation out of nothing even if it means making things up from scratch.
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bluebird




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 22 2012, 10:28 pm
groisamomma wrote:
Every time I hear about another inane Binah article I thank Hashem that I don't buy it. No sense getting all riled up by a paper that looks to create sensation out of nothing even if it means making things up from scratch.


Thumbs Up Most stories like this are made-up hyperbole to promote the writer's agenda. If the letter writer is real and had such experiences I would be shocked.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 23 2012, 1:30 am
Barbara wrote:
Why does it seem that frum people are always "addicted"

Doesn't anyone take personal responsibility?

"Hey, I like [filth]. Every once in a while, when you're nidda, or busy with the kids, or just because I feel like it, I watch. I'm in control. I made the decision. I can stop. I don't want to."

"I listened to my iPod on Shabbat. I know if assur, but I'm a teen, and sometimes teens make bad decisions. But this was my choice."

I think I'm going to declare myself addicted to lobster tail with drawn butter. Now its not my fault if I eat treyf. Blame the folks in Maine.


Applause
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grin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 23 2012, 8:57 am
saw50st8 wrote:
grin wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread but I think you may be amazed at how many of our "frum" teens cannot go through shabbos w/o their internet.


I am not sure its cannot. I think many DON'T WANT TO stop using the internet. That's a major distinction.
of course - it's more like THINK/FEEL they cannot - in other words, haven't developed enough willpower or determination or just don't care enough?

yes, I agree that "addiction" is used rather loosely nowadays.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 23 2012, 10:33 am
seeker wrote:
So the statistic you're conjuring would only be true if each writer were writing about a DIFFERENT death, which would involve killing off a lot of people, yes.


Perhaps I didn't adequately explain either my experience or the pervasiveness of the phenomenon. I've worked in private colleges of approximately 10,000 students in urban areas as well as regional universities with 25,000+ students. I can count on one hand the number of times when students in my sections attended the same high schools. Add to that the fact that many of the high schools attended by these students had 3,000-5,000 students.

However, this is not an observation I've conjured up on my own. As I said, this has been a longstanding joke among writing teachers, and it is frequently referenced in a joking manner at conferences, in articles, and on forums dedicated to crafting curricula and assignments that actually teach students something rather than encourage them to exaggerate (or construct from thin air) a dramatic event.

sequoia wrote:
Fox, forgive me but the only reason students write such essays for their comp classes is because comp classes are an idiotic idea. Give them something interesting to ponder, to ruminate, to reflect upon, and the writing will come. A class devoted solely to grammar and composition is bound to be torture for EVERYONE.


True dat! What can I say? It's a job, and young, untenured instructors are rarely asked for their input about how best to cultivate critical thinking skills while encouraging recognizable spelling and punctuation. They're lucky if they get to choose their own materials and design their own assignments.

Also, I was not teaching at places filled with students who had come in pursuit of big ideas. Most of the pondering, ruminating, and reflecting done by my students was focused on upcoming opportunities to get drunk or the relative merits of beer compared to grain alcohol fruit punch.

The class I enjoyed the most, though, was composed almost exclusively of former members of the military. This was in the early 90s, and many had served in Desert Storm. Their lives had apparently been dramatic enough that they didn't feel the need to rev it up for a dumb composition class, for which I remain eternally grateful.

BTW, no one can really compete in this arena with David Sedaris's "The Learning Curve," in which he details his stint as a last-minute replacement for a writing teacher "who found a better job delivering pizzas or driving a taxi."
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amother


 

Post Fri, Mar 23 2012, 12:38 pm
I read the article, did not read through every post, but skimmed them all and read some completely. I would like to add my 2 cents, maybe it'll help someone. My husband is a yeshivish, kollel yungerman who is a s@x addict. He goes to S@xaholic Annonymous meetings (equivalent of AA for alcoholics) and there are frum Jews, non-frum Jews, and non-Jews who attend and view their addiction in the same way - something that is terribly difficult to control but NOT OKAY to keep doing (for those who said the non-Jews don't think these things are a problem...) For several years DH begged me to take the network card in our laptop to work with me and keep it there. We did not have internet access but already then he was using other connections to view inappropriate things online. I never listened bc I thought, what's the big deal??? So you're spending too much time checking your email, so stop!
I will not go into a whole explanation and details of his addiction, but he had been diagnosed by several therapists as an addict. I will say that I think any attempt to make the frum community aware of the terrible dangers of the internet should NOT be taken lightly. It is so differend to just hear from people that your kids shouldn't be exposed to the internet because they can do "terrible things" than to hear a personal story such as the one in the article.
The girl does not blame her parents at all, she just mentions how she came to have the ipad. She expressed the fact that she was hesitant, probably bc all her bais yaakov teachers told her over and over again about how bad the internet is. She had NO CLUE what they meant until she found out the hard way and by then she was too far in. While it may seem like a contradiction to some, an addiction makes a person go against everything that's important to them to satisfy their addiction. Thus, she was a frum girl with emunah and bitachon and she knew what this was doing to her neshama. She begged Hashem to help her get out of it and is begging us to daven for her as well. Personally, I will have her in mind in my tefillos, as well as others going thru what she, my DH, and so many others are going through. You cannot imagine the agony and the pain she is going through until you go through it yourself. (Not that I can either, but I live with an addict and have some idea based on our convos/therapy sessions/etc.) It's literally like being in prison unable to escape - even though the gate is not locked. You just can't move because something invisible is holding you down, though you desparately want to escape.
To all those who laughed off and are STILL laughing off this whole thing I say lucky you and I hope that you or anyone close to you never goes through anything like this, or any other addiction.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Mar 25 2012, 8:55 am
Thanks, amother 12:38, I have to take you very seriously.
I will say I haven't read the article yet, I do see how others are viewing it though and have a hunch it won't be my cuppa.
Let me just say to all who read it and were disturbed by it, and not in the way amother thinks we should be, wash your eyes and brain out with some of the other great articles in the Binah, especially the infertility article by the Chabad shelucha. I also liked the Pesach cleaning article. Haven't got to the rest of it yet. (Sorry Scotty et al.)
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