Do you know any BTs or Gerim that reverted and why?

mimsy7420

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 12:57 pm

I know one guy who wasn't exactly a BT but came from a very very Modern Orthodox family. He went to Ner Yaakov in Israel and I guess you could say he "flipped out". He went to the MIR for a few years and the guy happens to be a genius, so he did very well there. He even took a test or two and got semicha. I think he had enough there and while still very very frum he came back with a Bachelors in Talmudic Law and got like in the 99 percentile on his LSATS and went to a big law school in the states. He slowly slowly started to lose everything and now today he is is barely even Jewish. He doesn't keep ANYTHING. I asked him a few times, what happened? He wouldn't really give me a straight answer but he said he got disillusioned in Israel with the Rabbis never being able to answer his questions properly and he had all these questions in his head and something just didn't sit well with him, and he always had doubts in the back of his mind. Now the guy is obviously on another level then the rest of us intellectually and so I couldn't really understand what exactly his questions were but it sounded like he couldn't get answers for this and this so why keep anything, because maybe it's all false.
Very very sad situation. He happens to be a very nice guy, but its crazy to think how my parents were getting shidduch calls for him when he came back to the states (before he lost everything, it happened slowly) and any of these poor girls could've married him while he was still on a high and then would've been stuck with him when he crashed.

ShiraMiri

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 1:11 pm

I know of BTs who opted out of an orthodox way of life. When it isn't what you are raised with, it can be hard to maintain. I am sure I get disillusioned more often than my FFB counterparts. Especially when you know it is possible to lead a good/moral/ethical life and not be frum - when you have examples of people like parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins who are all good people and are not orthodox. Sometimes you think - is it really worth it when I could easily go back to my old way of life and still be a decent person and be happy - maybe even happier?

Mevater

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 2:09 pm

only1 wrote:

He happens to be a very nice guy, but its crazy to think how my parents were getting shidduch calls for him when he came back to the states (before he lost everything, it happened slowly) and any of these poor girls could've married him while he was still on a high and then would've been stuck with him when he crashed.

First of all- I've spoken to a well known Torah personality, who I will not name, that told me there is no way to prove EVERYTHING in ANY religion. I really look up to this person more than I ever did, for his being candid about his thoughts.

2nd- Is it possible that this guy isn't telling you the REAL reason? Not all people tell you the truth about the black eras of their lives. (He could have been rejected by a frum girl and just doesn't want to talk about it).

3rd- Also, is it possible that if he would have gotten married, he would not have had the desire to ask those questions? Everything has an effect on everything else.

Just some points to ponder.

mimsy7420

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 2:16 pm

letsbehonest wrote:

only1 wrote:

I've thought of all those things. I'm sure he is not telling me the whole reason, maybe he doesn't even know the reason. But I'm pretty sure it was an intellectual reason, and something abour being frum in general not about anything specific that happened (like a bad date).
And I do wonder if he had gotten married right away after Israel, and had found someone quickly if things would've turned out differently for him. I wonder if he will ever find his way back. Some of the guys he hangs out with now are also not "frum" but have nice jewish hearts and there are some things that even they would not do, such as eating pig. But he doesn't care about ANYTHING anymore.
It's a sad situation.

Chani

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 4:37 pm

The gerim I've known who've stopped being frum without exception has been as a result of being unable to make a shidduch (after much effort and a lot of heartbreak). Oh yeah, lack of acceptance also takes its toll, although I've not seen anyone leave for that reason alone.

For BT's, it was usually in the context of a divorce - it seems that one spouse was never really that into it, but was just going along for the sake of the marriage...when the divorce happens, no reason to pretend.

Ribbie Danzinger

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 5:03 pm

I once heard a story about a town in which there was an epikorus who everyone had tried to speak to, conjoling, threatening, you name it, they tried it.
Once, a very well-known Rabbi came to the community and noticed this epikorus. The rav requested that the epikorus be invited to visit him. Everyone told the rav that it was useless, no-one could ever convince this epikorus to get back on the derech. Even so, the rav had the epikorus visit him. After discussing various issues together, the rav commented,
"I see that you are a very intelligent fellow, I would like to ask you a question. What made you become an epikorus?"
"Well, Rabbi, you see, I had many questions..." replied the epikorus.
"Hmm." Said the Rabbi, "In that case, I have just one more question to ask you."
"Go ahead and ask,"
"Did your questions come BEFORE you started being less frum or AFTER?"

I think in many cases when somebody moves away because of "unanswered questions" this is just an excuse (maybe they are not even aware of it themselves). Many frum people have many, many unanswered questions, but that doesn't make them turn away from Yiddishkeit ch"v, because they have emunah. If you don't have emunah and you have a rational analytical mind, it is likely to get you into deep trouble!

From what you say about this guy, Only1, I would imagine that what turned him on to Judaism was the opportunity it gave him for using his brilliant mind, but he did not have the necessary simple emunah inside him to keep him interested when he discovered that he could get credit for his analytical mind outside of the yeshiva world.

This should be an important point for Rabbanim and Rashei Yeshivot to note that instead of/together with placing the emphasis on Gemara study and pilpulim, they should make a point of infusing the talmidim with emunah tehora.

See also Rabbi Nachman of Breslav's story of the Chacham and the Tam for a beautiful illustration of this idea.

Mevater

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 5:26 pm

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

This should be an important point for Rabbanim and Rashei Yeshivot to note that instead of/together with placing the emphasis on Gemara study and pilpulim, they should make a point of infusing the talmidim with emunah tehora.

Absolutely.

As a BYBP and BYHS grad, what had the greatest effect on me were the teachers that spent time talking about whatever was on the girls' minds. While learning from a Sefer is important, what is most often remembered and cherished are those freefloating discussions with the warm teachers. Not all teachers can do that and not all teachers want to do that though, possibly from a fear of traveling into unknown territories, or not having a desire to relate anything about their personal lives. In today's day and age these discussions are neccessary.

Mitzvahmom

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 5:55 pm

Well my ex is a GER, and I really think he fried out because had not been an orthodox jew outside of the Yeshiva.

Let's face it the Yeshiva is a very sheltered environment, being jewish inthe outside world u can be faced with many challenges.. this caused him to go slowly insane, esp since he did not feel the connection I had always felt to being frum and close to Hashem.

I know it's not his fault, just drove him crazy. He's semi-normal now that we are divorced, though had admits to not being able to handle the kids.

amother

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 6:36 pm

I know a woman who is a Ger. She stopped being observant b.c of a racial issue. She is black and the community she was in treated her very very badly and she no longer found a place with them. The sad thing is she has a few kids. One of them is trying to make her way back to Judaism on her own. The mom is actually very supportive of it, even though the girl is facing some of the same racial issues as she did.

Chani

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 8:45 pm

Quote:

How did a Ger get to a Yeshiva in the first place?

Excuse me?!! There are gerim who have gotten semicha. There are gerim who are talmidei chachamim. Just as any other Jewish man has an obligation to learn, so too does a ger. I don't know any male gerim who didn't go to yeshiva, actually, other than a couple who were married (and the whole family converted).

amother

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 9:31 pm

Chani wrote:

Quote:

How did a Ger get to a Yeshiva in the first place?

I was under the impression somehow, that this person became frum later in life, not while young and Yeshiva age. I was thinking that if children are Megayer when very young, as part of the family unit, they develop a love for Yiddishkeit, similar to FFBs, which this person didn't seem to have.