Do you know any BTs or Gerim that reverted and why?

amother

Wed, Dec 06 2006, 9:51 pm

when I was a girl, I had a friend who was geires-- I looked up to her so much, she was beautiful and smart and I remember watching her go through shidduchim-- b"h she fried out before she got married-- and she's like the opposite of frum now. I guess I can also say b"h that she fried out slowly-- and our friendship dwindled before I even knew what was going on with her-- or I have no idea how I wouldn've reacted! she was a good girl and knew what she was doing and would go to great lengths to avoid pulling me down with her-- but it was still so weird.

for geirim who fry out, it's a huge halachik question as to whether the person is jewish!! and a shaila for their children etc. that's why a lot of rabbanim have stopped doing conversions-- since there have been more and more and since unfortunately frying out has become an issue among them...

amother

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 5:11 am

When I was growing up, there was a frum family in my neighborhood. The mother was a Bt and the father was a ger. There was a girl close to my age in my school (BY). All of a sudden, I heard that she was in public school, and I started seeing her walking around in Jeans. Basically the family became not frum, or fried out as some of you say, which makes me think of a frying pan.
They said that the parents became frum expecting that frum people have perfect lives. And when things didn't go perfectly...
I'm sure that was an overly simplistic explanation as to why they stopped being frum.
I have no idea what ever happened to them.

Mishie

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 5:35 am

A couple of years ago, we had these neighbors, (in a VERY CHAREDI neighborhood). They were a young Chasidish couple with a toddler.
The husband wore a Spodik (you know, the tall Shtreimel) and a Kappotah on Shabbos. And during the week he wore the regular chasidish Levush. The wife was also dressed very very tzniusdick.
They looked like the perfect couple.
They were always very quiet. but they always looked happy.
They were our neighbors for about 2 years.
Well, one day they moved away. (they sold all their belongings and also their apartment) and they just dissapeared.
A little while later another neighbor got a phone call from the husband.
Turns out, they went to Sweden and got divorced (He shaved off his beard and payes, she stopped covering her hair) and totally threw everything away. They're not frum at all!!!
Nobody ever found out why or what happened.... we were all so shocked.
BTW, the husband was a Ger, but the wife was born Jewish.

amother

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 5:58 am

My dh once had the most surreal experience. He got a call from someone in Israel - could he go to the airport in our city, to help a man give a get to his wife. So he goes there. There turns up a very very frum man, long peyos and all, with one or 2 other rabbanim, all straight out of Meah Shearim. Not many Jews, let alone frum Jews live in this country, so it was quite a sight. Then this girl turns up. Cute, blond, jeans, no sleeves, etc. Just a regular shiksa you see every day. Turns out she and this man were married. He went off the derech, met her, then he started to become frum again. She decided to convert. Slowly he became frummer and frummer, she looked just like any other chareidi woman. Then at some point (surprise surprise) she decided it was all too much for her, and went home to her family in Europe. Because she had been frum for so long, the husband was told he had to give her a get.

The sad thing was, you could see these two were still in love, despite the outward contrast.

Chani

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 6:13 am

Quote:

I was under the impression somehow, that this person became frum later in life, not while young and Yeshiva age. I was thinking that if children are Megayer when very young, as part of the family unit, they develop a love for Yiddishkeit, similar to FFBs, which this person didn't seem to have.

There are many yeshivot that will take somebody who is already an adult, even an older adult...I don't think the age at conversion has anything to do with the intensity of one's love for yiddishkeit. (Speaking with some knowledge here!). In fact, overcoming the obstacles and making the sacrifices that one has to make to become frum as an adult can enhance a ger's love for Yiddishkeit. There's nothing taken for granted, nothing that is happening by rote, not doing the mitzvos just because that's what your family /friends/community expects of you.

non-conformist

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 8:58 am

amother wrote:

for geirim who fry out, it's a huge halachik question as to whether the person is jewish!! and a shaila for their children etc. that's why a lot of rabbanim have stopped doing conversions-- since there have been more and more and since unfortunately frying out has become an issue among them...

I believe this is not correct. If they went through an orthodox conversion and they were sincere AT THE TIME of the conversion, what they do afterwards does not influence their Jewishness. Of course, this is one reason that the Rabbonim are so careful before they convert someone.... (and not every rabbi deals with conversion, they usually refer potential geirim to specialized rabbonim)

Motek

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 1:08 pm

Dr. Laura told the world that she converted and then she announced that she was no longer practicing. I wonder whether her conversion (done by an Orthodox rabbi) was kosher when she did not fully observe Shabbos, for example, from the very beginning.

Her stated reason for dropping out - she felt more welcomed by Christians than by Jews.

I know a giyores who stopped observing. She had very serious family troubles and felt unaccepted by the Jewish community.

Flowerchild

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Her stated reason for dropping out - she felt more welcomed by Christians than by Jews.

I know a giyores who stopped observing. She had very serious family troubles and felt unaccepted by the Jewish community

its interesting that you mentioned that, because I hear that often from friends who are BTs, me included.although I never experienced any rejection only support, I do know a few who turned away for those reasons. its sad because jewish people are warm, I wonder and I dont know if this will make any sense, could it be that jewish communitites became more stringent and more closeknit because of WWII, less accepting, more judgmental?

Crayon210

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 1:16 pm

Lillyofthevalley wrote:

I don't think that makes sense. Jews have become much less stringent in halacha since WWII, unfortunately.

Flowerchild

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 1:20 pm

crayon perhaps, but they are less accepting of other as well, in europe back then jews were intermingled with nonjews, and quiet a few were accepting of the nonjews, and intermarriage was high, is intermarriage high now? maybe we havent changed at all, are there more frum jews now?

amother

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 1:22 pm

Non-conformist:

Quote:

amother wrote:
for geirim who fry out, it's a huge halachik question as to whether the person is jewish!! and a shaila for their children etc. that's why a lot of rabbanim have stopped doing conversions-- since there have been more and more and since unfortunately frying out has become an issue among them...

I believe this is not correct. If they went through an orthodox conversion and they were sincere AT THE TIME of the conversion, what they do afterwards does not influence their Jewishness. Of course, this is one reason that the Rabbonim are so careful before they convert someone.... (and not every rabbi deals with conversion, they usually refer potential geirim to specialized rabbonim)

What is a geir? It is a Jewish person-- with a neshama-- that comes (is born into) through a non jewish atmosphere. It is that person's Avodah to seek out the Jewish People-- and the Rav's Avodah to see the neshama and help guide the person in.

If the person frys out, obviously there was something missing in someone's Avodah. The geir has to learn before converting-- and be on the level where s/he wouldn't fry out-- so this means that the person doesn't "idealize" frum life and convert for those reasons. a person who converts for those reasons and frys out-- it wasn't true conversion-- and the person may, in fact, be a [gentile].

also when moshiach comes eliyahu hanavi tells us who is and isn't jewish-- no ifs ands and buts about it!

Motek

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 5:11 pm

Lillyofthevalley wrote:

I don't think that's the problem. I think in the case of the giyores that I know, she has a difficult personality and turned people off. Nebech, she has tzaros and those too were difficult for people to handle. If she'd be FFB I don't think she'd have much support either Sad

Crayon210

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 5:17 pm

Lillyofthevalley wrote:

crayon perhaps, but they are less accepting of other as well, in europe back then jews were intermingled with nonjews, and quiet a few were accepting of the nonjews,

What are you referring to?

Quote:

and intermarriage was high, is intermarriage high now?

Yes, why?

Quote:

maybe we havent changed at all, are there more frum jews now?

More frum Jews where than there were where and when?

(Hmm.)

Chani

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 5:40 pm

My understanding is that whether a ger who goes off the derech is Jewish or not comes down to whether his intention at the time of conversion was sincere. If he goes off very soon after converting we suspect that it wasn't. If he goes off 5 years later, that's a different situation altogether. Just like born Jews, it is possible for a ger to go off the derech but still be Jewish.

amother

Thu, Dec 07 2006, 6:11 pm

Motek wrote:

I think in the case of the giyores that I know, she has a difficult personality and turned people off. Nebech, she has tzaros and those too were difficult for people to handle. If she'd be FFB I don't think she'd have much support either Sad

Sad state of affairs we have- Aren't the sad, difficult cases, the very people who Frum people should go out of their way, and put the most effort into helping, any way possible? Aren't we Rachmonim B'nai Rachmonim- from the shoresh of Rechem, supposed to treat all other Jews, as if all other Jews, came out of our womb (our children)? Would we not do everything in our power to help and soothe the child of ours who is in the most distress, above all others?

amother

Fri, Dec 08 2006, 4:15 am

amother wrote:

to the mother who thinks of a frying pan when we talk about frying out:

that's cute. ;-)

fry, or frei, in this sense, is a yiddish word that literally means free. frum and frei are opposites in yiddish.

I'm familiar with the word frei. But I would say someone became frei, not fried out. I've never heard that term. But I guess it makes sense, since we say "frummed out". It just sounds really strange at first if you aren't used to it.