Do you know any BTs or Gerim that reverted and why?

WriterMom

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 12:06 pm

Possibly giving away the game with this, because I'm not sure how many families this could describe, but where I grew up, the rabbi (who is a major authority in his field and written several books) and his wife couldn't have children naturally, and adopted lots, none of them white. I learned two valuable things from this: first, those of us who knew this family as kids grasped early on that while the great majority of Jews we knew were European-looking, except for some of the Sephardim, it's possible for a Jew to be any race, colour, size, shape etc. The second thing I learned was that lots of people, I hope only in older generations, have trouble accepting non-white Jews. It made my blood boil when a group of us would go to an event and someone would ask why we brought a non-Jewish friend (who was, by virtue of being the rabbi's daughter, the frummest one in our group.)

amother

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 12:28 pm

First of all, I want to say that whoever it was who questioned MitzvahMom about how a ger ended up in yeshiva, I understood the question in a different way. I thought she meant, how did a non-Jew (before he converted) end up learning in yeshiva, which is a completely different situation. I'm not sure what the poster actually meant, though, although my "version" makes more sense and would be less "offensive" to those of you who have taken offense by the question.
Secondly, to answer the original question, I know of two such stories, one of each (BT and ger), both men who went OTD, and both sadly ended in divorce. One, a young couple in our neighborhood, she I believe had grown up Lubavitch and he was a Ger from the middle of nowhere. They were both professionals, had a few kids close together, and she was very pregnant and suddenly he was...gone (it was obvious b/c he wasn't around at the sholom zochor, bris, etc.) No one really knew what happened, I think she was intentionally not saying lashon hara about him b/c she had been guided (probably wisely) not to. But it seems he decided he no longer wanted to be frum/Jewish and just took off. Of course, as much as we all like to speculate, there is NO WAY we can know the "true story..." Did marital/financial/amotional/fill-in-the-blank problems precipitate this? Did he just become Jewish so these children would be brought into the world? etc...Last I heard, she remarried a Lubavitcher and was doing fine...at the time her ex's (non-Jewish) parents were appalled at what their son had done and were making every effort to help her out, visiting, babysitting etc. which could not have been easy for them, they were living far away and probably had little or no knowledge of the frum lifestyle.
The other situation was a close friend of mine who I grew up with, she married a BT who had been frum for quite a few years, he had frum family, education, etc. They had children and one day, maybe 15 years later, she told me they were getting divorced. I never pressed for details as I feel it's not my business in these situations. She knows I'm here if she wants to talk. Anyway I eventually heard "around town" that her ex is no longer frum. Again, I'm not sure what came first, the chicken or the egg, but as in all these situations, unless both parts of the couple STAND ON THE STREET CORNER AND ANNOUNCE IT, we will never know what really happened....

the world's best mom

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 12:32 pm

I don't mean to be critical here, but I have a Litvish friend who works as a therapist in Williamsburg, and people there who don't know her think she's not Jewish. She was once working with a kid and a neighbor came in, saw my friend, and said in Yiddish, "Where did you find this Polishe [gentile woman] who wears such nice patent leather shoes?" My friend answered in Yiddish, "You like my shoes? Thank you. I got them in that store..." The neighbor sure was shocked. My friend is used to it, though. Since she doesn't look like Jews in Williamsburg, she accepts the fact that they will think she is not Jewish. The same, unfortunately, goes for many black Geirim. I know black boys who wear Yarmulkas and go to Yeshiva, and they are fully accepted as Jews. Yet I admit that the first time I saw one black Giyores, I didn't realize that she was Jewish. It wasn't a matter of acceptance- as soon as I heard her talk about Jewish topics, I realised my mistake and began to admire her greatly. It's more a matter of not realising. Since most Jews are white, when we see a black, we don't always realise right away that they are Jewish. The real problem occurs if people are not accepting of them once they do realise that these people are Jewish. They are Jews like all others, and yes, they do belong in Yeshivas, regardless of how old they were when they were Migayer.

shosh

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 12:56 pm

My first cousin unfortunately married a Pakistani Muslim and had two dds. When their marriage fell apart and she returned to her home town, she decided that even though she wasn't interested in frumkeit she wanted her girls to know they were Jewish. So she sent them to a Jewish school. These two girls were absolutely beautiful, btw, very Sephardi looking. But from what I'm told, they really suffered for being half Asian.

Today the older girl is living with a Jewish guy who actually happens to be a very distant relation (third cousin or something.) I hope they'll get married one day. The younger girl moved in with an Irish [gentile] and married him sometime after their first ds was born (they've since had another one). She refused pointblank to give these little boys a bris and they know absolutely nothing about being Jewish. But then these kids are halachically Jewish, Muslim according to their grandfather and also of Irish ancestry, nebbech. I can't help thinking that maybe this young girl would have more likely stayed within the fold of Yiddishkeit if no one had given her such a hard time over her Pakistani ancestry.

Ok, neither of these girls are geirim or BTs and never had much chance to be frum. But their mother tried by sending them to a Jewish school and I think it's sad with the younger girl that the boat seems to have been missed. I'm just hoping that the older one will marry her Jewish boyfriend ...

ora_43

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 1:36 pm

The geirim I know who became less frum - in every case that I can remember, it happened shortly after they moved from a very Jewish environment to a much smaller / much less frum community. For example, one couple moved from Jerusalem to a European country with a very small community (where the dh is from) and became at least much less frum (I'm not in touch with them enough to know if they're still shomer mitzvot at all, but I hope so).

With the BTs, it tended to be a bit more gradual, at least from an external perspective. They were frum for a while, say 1-3 years, but then real life kicked in as they went from a year in Israel back to school in the states, or as they went from some kind of Jewish learning program to a life of work and grad school and unsuccessful dating, and they slowly started dropping things.

I think it's like in dating relationships. There are couples who fall in love but just can't make it past that point where the relationship stops being new and becomes another part of day-to-day life, and suddenly requires a lot of work instead of just growing on its own. I don't think it necessarily means the initial love was less strong than in those relationships that make it long term.

Isramom8

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 1:39 pm

Inspired wrote:

The few gerim that I know who stopped being frum ("reverted"?) did so because frum jews were unaccepting of them.
Whoever said that a ger stopping being frum after their geyrus calls it into question, doesn't know much halacha. If a convert was sincere in the mikvah and during the giyor they are a jew. nothing they can do after passuls the gerus.

Yes (at least if they were over bar/bas mitzvah), but if they "revert", then you kind of wonder if they were sincere to begin with.

That said, I know several types - geirim that ended up not frum, geirim that were never sincere to begin with, and lehavdil, mamash frum, sincere geirim who are committed, devoted, helpful to their communities, and are a joy and pride and credit to Klal Yisrael. Some of my best friends are geirim. Very Happy

sarahd

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 3:07 pm

ValleyMom wrote:

Wow, wow, wow. Lots of small minded people on this web site.
How can someone possibly ASK how a Ger ended up in yeshiva.
That is just so incredibly narrowminded.

Can I ask something? If you thought this thread exposed the narrowmindedness and small mindedness of people on this site, why did you feel the need to bring up the thread again? It's been dormant for three years. Do you think this was useful for other posters here who may not have seen the thread the first time and could be hurt by it now?

sequoia

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 3:16 pm

I'm not gonna bother reading this thread, doesn't sound like something I would want to read.

You see, when it comes to everything else in the world, it's always, "ask a rav." But when it comes to conversions, then "I know better than the rav, three of them said you were Jewish but I don't think so."

Oh and yeah... I do know converts who are no longer living a frum life. Mostly people who were converted as children, and then adolescence came along. But adolescence doesn't last forever.

mimivan

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 3:50 pm

I had a roomate who converted and then went OTD a few months later after moving to E.Y. She moved straight to Germany and lived with a [gentile] whose grandfather was an SS officer. Now she lives in California and converted to Islam. Before she converted to Judaism, she had converted to Mormon.

I think she converted because she wanted to live a colorful life, find a guy etc.. who knows. She is funny, full of life and charisma, but I think she is unstable. Psychological instability (and I think she has a conversion addiction) is the reason why some gerim go OTD. They think the conversion will "cure" their symptoms, when they need psychological help.

It was a similar case with a guy I heard of who was an alcoholic, converted to Judaism, married had kids and as soon as the pressures of life started building up, he went OTD and became a drunk again.

Marx said religion is the opiate of the masses, but Judaism is not a pill or psychotherapy...or sobriety...a person has to convert with a sound mind, and it is tough because sometimes it is hard to tell who is stable enough to stay and who isn't. I know another geyoress who battles with depression, although she doesn't seemed to have converted as a "cure" for her problem. However, frumkeit gives her chizuk...

freidasima

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 4:02 pm

I can't think of any gerim or giyoros that I know who reverted, davka the opposite. I know those who had orthodox giyur but were only so so in the beginning and got a lot frummer as time went on, and today are charedi and wonderful examples of frumkeit.

I do however know a few BTs who reverted, but they all had the same common denominator, they became BT as they had been looking for something and didn't find it, first in the ashram and then somewhere else and finally they ended up in EY and went to a BT yeshiva and became frum...for a while. With some it lasted a few years, with others a bit more but these were all people who were desperately searching, who were very unhappy people and rather emotionally unstable and I can only assume that the same instability was at the root of their leaving frumkeit. Meaning it had to do with their own internal demons and not anything having to do with their religious education, surroundings, marriage, etc.

On the other hand most BTs that I know who became frum stayed frum, and some became more frum in time and with more learning. I look at them, and at the gerim that I know and truly understand the meaning of the phrase that in a place where Baalei Teshuva stand no one and even a complete zaddik (FFB I presume) can stand in their footsteps! Incredible choices they made and incredible people.

I, for one, don't know if I had not been born frum whether I would have become frum and had I not been born Jewish I can't imagine I would have taken all of this on voluntarily.

chocolate moose

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 4:03 pm

I'm told that when the person wants to convert, they are told again and gain that they may not get married, etc. I understand they go into the situation with t heir eyes wide open, and they've been living a fully Jewish life for some time.

"Not being accepted" doesn't fly with me. what were they before the conversion; were they more accepted then ?

and, as far the halacha about being sincere during toiveling; I'm told that if the person regresses later - and I'm not sure how much later - that they weren't really since in the mikvah and aren't really jewish.

mimivan

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 4:35 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

I asked Rav Schwei this question regarding that roomate of mine I described above who went OTD after a few months and eventually converted to Islam. I asked him if I should bother to try to continue my friendship with her in the capacity of trying to be that one thread of Yiddishkeit left in her life so she could maybe come back someday iy'h...(because if his psak din was that she isn't Jewish, I wouldn't bother, because I felt I had invested so much already, it was just too painful)..

Rav Schwei's psak in this case was that if she is frum even a little bit of time (I.e. weeks or months) before she goes OTD, then she is still a Jew and should and could be m'carved..

however, I think iif the same day (didn't ask this) if right after toiveling a convert runs to the nearest McDonald's and has a big Mac, it would be a different story.