Do you know any BTs or Gerim that reverted and why?

Maya

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 2:21 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

I don't mean to be critical here, but I have a Litvish friend who works as a therapist in Williamsburg, and people there who don't know her think she's not Jewish. She was once working with a kid and a neighbor came in, saw my friend, and said in Yiddish, "Where did you find this Polishe [gentile woman] who wears such nice patent leather shoes?" My friend answered in Yiddish, "You like my shoes? Thank you. I got them in that store..." The neighbor sure was shocked. My friend is used to it, though. Since she doesn't look like Jews in Williamsburg, she accepts the fact that they will think she is not Jewish.

I find this story very hard to believe.

Fox

Sun, Nov 22 2009, 3:39 pm

freidasima wrote:

these were all people who were desperately searching, who were very unhappy people and rather emotionally unstable and I can only assume that the same instability was at the root of their leaving frumkeit. Meaning it had to do with their own internal demons and not anything having to do with their religious education, surroundings, marriage, etc.

I think this is the key. I can think of only one BT of my acquaintance who was fully assimilated into the frum community before abandoning observance, but I've known quite a handful who were somewhere on the road to frumkeit before taking a detour.

A friend of mine once said something that stuck with me: "Becoming frum doesn't solve all your problems in life. A person who has real emotional or psychological issues doesn't get rid of them just by by becoming frum; he just becomes a frum person with emotional or psychological issues.

There's no doubt that our communities could be a little less judgmental of the minor faux paux (sp? -- help me out on the plural, Ruchel!) made by newcomers. I remember one woman who was treated very unkindly because of her fashion sense -- she was very into the "Western" look with cowboy boots, fringed jackets, etc. She was perfect tznius -- in fact, a lot more tznius than some of her detractors! -- but needless to say, her "look" wasn't exactly the norm, and she was very hurt by people's comments.

One thing that I think we could all do as a community or as individuals is to help those who've made a commitment to Torah is to help them avoid the silly pitfalls associated with clothing, Yiddish-oriented expressions and language usage, and just general "how to make friends and influence people" kinds of skills in the frum world.

Where do people buy clothes? What are the unwritten rules about clothing styles in community X? The folks at shul Y might not be accustomed to someone with a nose ring. The families associated with school Z generally don't wear denim skirts. When a 12-year-old girl talks about 'my baby,' she means her mother's baby.The list goes on and on! Often, we are trying so hard to convince newcomers that we're all just one big happy family that we really cripple them by not giving them information that would make their adjustment a lot easier.

A few years ago I was asked by several local BTs for suggestions regarding an upcoming trip to Brooklyn. They were really looking for shopping suggestions, my favorite restaurants, a good car service, etc. Well, those of you here on imamother know that I can't do anything in just a few words, so I ended up making them a whole little travel guide.

I wrote about the various neighborhoods they would enjoy visiting; how to dress so as not to stand out too much; what to say to people who asked where they were from and what names to mention; some common differences that are really regional rather than Jewish (e.g., don't ask for a can of pop in Brooklyn); and, of course, the names of my favorite stores, restaurants, car service, etc.

Well, they were thrilled, and came back telling my how much they loved all the places I'd sent them and how warmly they'd been received everywhere they went. I think at least some of the success of the trip was because they knew some of the fine points of how to fit in -- they weren't trying to pass themselves off as something or someone they weren't -- but I can guarantee that their shopping expedition on Lee Street went a lot better because I'd headed them off from wearing denim skirts and t-shirts!

I've often thought that we should try to have some organized materials for newcomers. Obviously, the content would vary from community to community, and it shouldn't necessarily be committed to paper. But we're really putting a stumbling block before the blind when we welcome a Jew with eager arms while secretly noting that he or she will never "really" fit in.

amother

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 5:47 am

I know a giyoress with an orthodox conversion who was traditional at the time of her conversion, married to a non frum jew. she pushed him to become frummer, sent him to shul, and the whole family became frummer, but he became ultra shtark and imposed it on her, when she wanted to be no more than modern orthodox... and after their divorce she stopped being frum (but she thinks she still is, just modern orthodox) but is still traditional.

she went off because the ultra orthodox way of life was imposed on her by her husband.
And rav elyashiv paskened that she is a jew 100% so no issue about her geirus...

amother

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 5:48 am

amother

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 5:48 am

I know a female convert who was married to a very frum israeli, made aliya with her DH and children. DH had problem finding a job, I think he became violent and abusive, she had to take the kids and move back to her town. They subsequently got divorced, so many people tried to find her a sidduch but it's not easy being a divorcee ger with teenage kids. The last time I heard the mother and children are no longer affiliated with the original shul.

DH knows a BT guy who learned at a very prominant yishiva but went off the derech after finding out he's more interested in men than in women. He just couldn't see how he can be accepted in his yeshivish community. We bumped into the guy and his partner by coincidence but neither of us hardly recognised him.

hadasa

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 8:44 am

I know several bt's or geirim who either went off or went light light. I can't judge them for it, though. When I think about how I sometimes go all gung-ho about a certain diet or system or whatever and then fail to keep up with it, I am more in awe of those that HAVE voluntarily accepted a Frum lifestyle and stick to it all their lives. I believe this is only possible because of their Jewish Neshamah, which draws them to Torah and Mitzvos. And if the Yetzer hara sometimes gets the better of the Neshamah and drags it down, well, doesn't that happen occasionally to all of us? And if I have the benefit of upbringing and ingrained habit (not to mention familial and social ties) to keep me from going all the way down, can I blame those who do not have these things?
Nevertheless, since I believe it is the Neshamah that drew them to Yiddishkeit in the first place, I shall never give up on them, and hope that it will eventually be victorious.

amother

Silver

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 1:04 pm

One guy I met on Frumster told me that his wife converted to Judaism and went back to christianity, and that she was mentally ill. Mental illness can play a role.

Last edited by amother on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mon, Nov 23 2009, 1:41 pm

I know of a woman who is in some sort of no man's land. She ID's as Jewish but there is no way I'd eat in her home. She started off in a community that was wary of geirim due to having been burnt, then moved across the country and didn't have the welcome and infrastructure she needed. She admits to having made some mistakes too, so I'm not blaming her or the community. Just sad that things didn't click.

amother

Thu, Dec 03 2009, 11:43 am

mimsy7420 wrote:

letsbehonest wrote:

only1 wrote:

He happens to be a very nice guy, but its crazy to think how my parents were getting shidduch calls for him when he came back to the states (before he lost everything, it happened slowly) and any of these poor girls could've married him while he was still on a high and then would've been stuck with him when he crashed.

First of all- I've spoken to a well known Torah personality, who I will not name, that told me there is no way to prove EVERYTHING in ANY religion. I really look up to this person more than I ever did, for his being candid about his thoughts.

2nd- Is it possible that this guy isn't telling you the REAL reason? Not all people tell you the truth about the black eras of their lives. (He could have been rejected by a frum girl and just doesn't want to talk about it).

3rd- Also, is it possible that if he would have gotten married, he would not have had the desire to ask those questions? Everything has an effect on everything else.

Just some points to ponder.

I've thought of all those things. I'm sure he is not telling me the whole reason, maybe he doesn't even know the reason. But I'm pretty sure it was an intellectual reason, and something abour being frum in general not about anything specific that happened (like a bad date).
And I do wonder if he had gotten married right away after Israel, and had found someone quickly if things would've turned out differently for him. I wonder if he will ever find his way back. Some of the guys he hangs out with now are also not "frum" but have nice jewish hearts and there are some things that even they would not do, such as eating pig. But he doesn't care about ANYTHING anymore.
It's a sad situation.

I know of somebody with a very similar story but the untold story is issues that he had growing up with his father and who knows what else. He covers it up by asking intellectual questions but being that he is my BIL I have a better idea than everyone else about why he is the way he is. These intellectual things are just excuses.

amother

Fri, Dec 04 2009, 7:31 am

chocolate moose wrote:

I'm told that when the person wants to convert, they are told again and gain that they may not get married, etc. I understand they go into the situation with t heir eyes wide open, and they've been living a fully Jewish life for some time.

"Not being accepted" doesn't fly with me. what were they before the conversion; were they more accepted then ?

and, as far the halacha about being sincere during toiveling; I'm told that if the person regresses later - and I'm not sure how much later - that they weren't really since in the mikvah and aren't really jewish.

CM, it's one thing to be told it, and another thing to experience it.

When I converted, I had been living within the community for quite some time. It was a warm, friendly, very accepting community and I had great social support. My husband (I had had a conservative conversion some years earlier) was becoming BT at the same time (and before anyone asks, I was the one who pushed him into becoming frum, not the opposite), so there really wasn't the shidduch issue in my case. So, I really hadn't experienced any lack of acceptance at all.

Then we moved to a far more yeshivish community, and my eyes were opened to exactly how narrow-minded, nosy, and unaccepting a frum community could be. It was truly shocking to me, but I definitely wised up quickly. As soon as I realized how it was going to be, I began to take pains not just to fit in (I already fit in fairly well in terms of tznius, for example), but to fit in as much as possible.

With the passage of some years (and I'd like to believe the acquisition of more self-confidence and wisdom), I've become much more open about who I really am in many ways. Looking back, I can't really understand why I was so desperate to have these women, many of whom looked down their noses at BT's and giyorot, accept me. My attitude today is that I'd rather be real and have the confidence that if somebody's got a problem with that, then good riddance. It makes life a lot simpler not to worry about what other's are thinking. I've got some great friends, real through thick and thin friends, and I'm very grateful for them. Am I going to be head of the PTA or a social butterfly? Um no, but that's just fine with me.

btMOMtoFFBs

Fri, Dec 04 2009, 10:00 am

I did know a friend in college who converted Orthodox... everyone had her over for Shabbos for a year and two and just loved her.

She met a non Jewish guy in college before she graduated college and ... stopped being frum. Could be something else happened that turned her off and I'm just not aware of it.

It was sad to see and terribly painful to all those families that used to host her and treated her like family.