your going to get it mommy - need advice

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children

Your going to get it mommy - need advice

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amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 9:26 am

my oldest is 11.5 and I need advice

He has been going to sleep late and then going late to school because of it.
He just called me up from cheder to ask if he could go somewhere that finishes late.
I told him no - because he left for cheder after 9:30 he cannot be home late tonight as a consequence.

His reply was "your going to get it mommy"
and I know if he says this he will come home and do everything possible to make my life miserable including hitting his sisters.

How would you deal with this? this is a difficult child we are dealing with.

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 3:33 pm

Did I write your post? I'm sure I didn't but I'm sure that I could. Unfortunately I have no advice for you, I'm in the same boat.
Am at my wits end and hoping someone has some magical advice.

grin

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 3:58 pm

it sounds to me like a form of blackmail - what happens later when he "makes your life miserable"? how do you respond to that? there should be some kind of dire consequence to hitting, by that age.

Liba

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 4:07 pm

I agree, he is blackmailing you. If it were my child I would tell him that that is what it sounded like and that it isn't acceptable in my house. I would do what ever I had to to make sure he understood it and never tried it again.

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 4:20 pm

This is the second amother
I know full well that this is emotional blackmail. I have told my ds that this is unacceptable. Problem is he doesn't much care what I say. Consequences just make his behavior worse. If you have a child like this you know what I'm talking about. If you don't, you probably don't.
I don't know exactly if this is the same thing as OP, and I don't want to hijack so I'm going to sit back now and wait for some good advice......if it exists.

granolamom

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 4:22 pm

have you read 'the explosive child'?
its got some good perspective on difficult children in there. different way of viewing the situation with a very different approach than just applying your typical parenting measures (which usually do not work for these types of kids).
its not easy. I hope that your evening goes better than you anticipate. reward yourself with something after the kids are all in bed.
:::hugs:::

Liba

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 4:22 pm

It sounds like time for professional help then, not imamother. Do you have a psychologist or psychiatrist you are working with?

granolamom

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 5:21 pm

eh,psychologist and psychiatrists are not the end all be all to our tough problems. sometimes someone who's btdt has more effective advice. to the OP, the answer is deep within you. May Hashem help you find it. It may be that for you and your son professional help is the right 'next move' and it may be that it isnt. worth exploring if you're into that sort of thing, and if you arent, I believe that help can come in many different forms. Keep praying and keep your eyes (and mind) wide open.

disclaimer: I do not have perfect kids, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, lol

gryp

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 6:07 pm

What happens to him when he hits his sisters?

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 6:36 pm

Ours is a year old and a girl, but almost the same otherwise. We have tried counseling, meds, consequences, rewards, etc and it seems to only get worse. We are on our last approach right now and then sadly may have to send her away...the effect on the rest of the family is just too severe. Please if anyone has more suggestions I'm interested as well as OP.

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 7:10 pm

To the above Amother-what is your last approach? I, too, have a child like this. I am always looking for new approaches, nothing seems to work. I know all about this effecting the rest of the family. It is very hard but I cannot imagine sending this child away even when I see bad effects on the other children. I am trying lots and lots of love right now. I am trying to help the other children see that this one is unwell and needs them also. For us right now things have stabilized a little, I am hoping things will start to improve eventually. I hope your new approach works so that you don't have to send her away. Please share it if you do not mind. I am very interested in hearing about it.

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 7:41 pm

My son is ke'h nearly 20 and gave us a run for our money. At one point someone suggested he might be ODD. I was certainly reluctant to punish because he did not handle it well at all, and I made sure to tell every rebbe that he responds much better to positive reinforcement.

What helped me tremendously was Rabbi Noach Orlowek's books on chinuch.

In particular I decided to pick my battles and only ever say something absolutely necessary, and even then, only in a joking way and never a command. ("Shefalah, you know, there's a closet in your room for a reason, and it's not so my dining room chair can be adorned with your jacket" ---all the while saying "Thank you Hashem that he wears a jacket" - never taking anything for granted!)

I tried every year to make sure he had a rebbe who was easygoing and willing to work with what the child needed as opposed to using his 'tried & true' methods. In fact we sent him to a low-pressure mesivta (far lower than what he could have handled academically) because we felt that any pressure would be bad for him.

And I don't think I ever gave him consequences for going to cheder late. I knew the rebbe would give him a look/whatever, and I let him 'own the problem' as much as possible I.e. it's not MY problem if he's late, it's his to deal with as he decides.

(See a recent ami or mishpacha article about the woman who ignored the therapist who said her son had signs of anxiety/depression/ major trouble getting up in the morning. She refused to put him on meds 'because of shidduchim'. Unfortunately, the boy is now OTD which was not too helpful for the other kids' resumes. And now he's on meds, much happier, and no trouble waking up in the morning. NOT that I am a fan of meds, but saying you must deal with a problem as it needs to be dealt with!)

I tried to always remember that what is most important is not 'this particular battle' with my son but our overall relationship. I tried to always be positive and loving.

It's important to distinguish between serious character flaws or personality disorders and childlike behavior that will be outgrown. This can probably be done best with professional help, but you don't necessarily have to take your son. You can go to a highly recommended therapist & describe what happens, & he/she can advise you how to handle various issues.

I did go speak to a therapist when I felt I needed it (once or twice a year) just to get some chizuk (and I took a few parenting courses which I applied inconsistently). We never got to the point where we felt he should see one. We also didn't always follow through e.g. she recommended my husband should play catch with him as he was very non-sports oriented, and this could help him become more popular in school, but neither he nor my husband were interested.

I was very concerned that he didn't have friends but B"H he seems quite popular now.

I tend to not remember the past in much detail, but I do know we had some very rough and frightening years. I am pretty sure I heard from others, that the children that are most challenging can give you the most nachas in the long run. You really do need a lot of support of the right kind! Hatzlacha rabba!

elf123

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 8:11 pm

amother wrote:

I hope this is a typo and that you are not planning on sending away a ONE YEAR OLD!

mha3484

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 8:24 pm

I think she meant her daughter is a year older or so I hope

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:03 pm

amother wrote:

I am one of the another's, not the OP.
Just wanna say your post was really what I needed right now. Thank you for sharing. I will look for the books you recommended. I think we mothers of difficult children need a support group.

marina

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:09 pm

I don't know if anyone is going to listen, but it's worth a shot. Especially since it seems people are considering sending away children.

John Rosemond wrote a book, it's called the well behaved child. It's old, it's 8 dollars on amazon, and it's way too strict for most parents here.

But there are many parents of difficult children who have been tremendously helped by this book. The overall theme is that you are the parent, he is the child, and a "you're going to get it mommy" is an attitude that warrants a severe response. The book gives you tremendous confidence in your disciplining

My son could easily be just as rude and defiant and miserable as the one you describe, OP- he is a very, very challenging 11 year old. We are very strict with him and it works. He is not permitted to be rude, to ignore directions, or to disrespect his siblings. He gets three freebies a day, the third time he loses dessert, the fourth time any and all computer/screen time and if there is a sixth time, he is grounded for the rest of the day- cannot leave his room.

In the beginning, a child such as yours will not be ready for this system. When I first started, my son was 9 and he had considerable chutzpah issues. He thought this whole program was mommy's little joke. As per the book, I grounded him, took away every toy from his room, left only books and clothing, and told him that he's allowed out for meals and school and shul. This was to be for 14 days, but if he was disrespectful at any point, the 14 days would start again. After about three false starts, he got serious, stopped mouthing off and was a different kid. It held well for two years. Recently, he was starting to cop an attitude again, so I repeated this punishment with a ten day grounding instead, likewise to re-start if he begins to be disrespectful. It was very effective. The book explains in detail these methods and how they might work for you.

My kid is a normal boy, hyper and wild and talks too much and likes to bug his sisters. But the extent of his rudeness now is rolling his eyes or saying "yeah right." When I give a direction and explicitly remind him that this is a direction and he will lose a freebie if it is not followed, he almost always immediately complies, even if grumbling.

I'm not saying the above to brag, but just to say that it is certainly possible to change your child. Get the book, follow the advice, don't expect miracles but be tough and consistent. I have met other children who were unbearable and violent and vicious and now their parents have a different family after following the book.

Caveat: I do not agree with everything John Rosemond preaches, I pick and choose what l like.

Also: you need to be tough. My kid did not resist a grounding. If your child will refuse to stay in his room, I would up the ante and inform him that his favorite toy/activity will be trashed if he does not stay in the room, etc.

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:11 pm

I apologize for some reason my computer just says "today" and not the time, but I'm the amother with a DD with similar outbursts and threats. I just reread it oh my, yes a year older, almost 13!!! Although looking back I see evidence of such a strong personality from when she was very young. We have her seeing a psychoanalyst now but he just saw her for the first time this week and hasn't determined if she is a good candidate. It costs a fortune and our insurance is HMO so doesn't cover. We don't want to send her away of course but there is violence our little one is witnessing (she will kick the seats and throw things at us while we are driving:(), and we have to cater to her whims to avoid daily/hourly blowups. I feel so isolated because we keep it hush hush as much as possible due to the stigma.

marina

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:12 pm

As an aside, yes, we use a lot of positive reinforcement and carve out particular time to spend with this child, go to special places with him or just do fun stuff with him individually. That also helps. Kids like concrete things.

amother

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:14 pm

Marina we tried Rosemond and it just didn't work for us. She just doesn't care about anything being taken away/any punishment and still acts out:(

Sherri

Wed, Apr 25 2012, 10:19 pm

I don't have any advice but want to wish all the mothers on the thread who are in this difficult circumstance a lot of hatzlacha and koach! Salut

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