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Where are we going wrong??
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2012, 10:31 pm
Those are low paying fields that never earn much. I would then recommend moving to a lower cost of living area or changing fields.

The reality is you need to work even longer hrs then that usually to earn substantially more. Doctors, corporate lawyers, people in finance, work much longer hrs for their higher salaries. My husband is in a medical field and earns 6 figures but he works 70 or so hrs a week, and nights and weekends that make that even more most weeks. So when a certain family member of mine makes comments about his salary, I tell her that he works twice the hrs of many men. His hourly salary is not necessarily more.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2012, 11:31 pm
A teacher and a social worker? I'm not sure you'll ever be able to afford a house in NY. Those are white collar jobs, but not necessarily "middle class income" jobs, especially for a frum family.
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 22 2012, 12:17 am
amother wrote:
Those are low paying fields that never earn much. I would then recommend moving to a lower cost of living area or changing fields.

The reality is you need to work even longer hrs then that usually to earn substantially more. Doctors, corporate lawyers, people in finance, work much longer hrs for their higher salaries. My husband is in a medical field and earns 6 figures but he works 70 or so hrs a week, and nights and weekends that make that even more most weeks. So when a certain family member of mine makes comments about his salary, I tell her that he works twice the hrs of many men. His hourly salary is not necessarily more.


Yes and no. There are lots of lawyers and doctors in my family, so I hear you, but it's not always true. I know people who work just as many hours and earn less, and people who work fewer hours and earn more. 50 hours is pretty common for many jobs these days, 60 when starting out in many fields.

My little sister works about 60 hours a week for 31K a year. She's in an entry level position, and I have no idea if she will really pursue what she's doing.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 22 2012, 3:13 am
amother wrote:
ora_43 wrote:
amother wrote:
It just makes me sad that no matter how hard we work (and we're both educated people in decent jobs), we will just never make it to buying a house and such. It's crazy that we earn a decent income by American standards yet it doesn't feel that way.

Again, what you describe sounds very typical for the middle class, at least in my experience. What were you expecting it to feel like?


OP here:

I was expecting at least to be able to save up to buy a house - I think that's to be expected for someone in middle class.

I don't know anyone middle class who had cleaning help or take-out food before they bought a house. Saving for a down payment means scrimping and saving for years, and usually a loan from family on top of that. And that was among non-frum/non-Jewish families far from any big city.

Kal v'chomer in NYC. Depending where you are in NYC, it could be nobody middle class can afford to buy there anymore no matter how much they cut back.

Again not trying to be harsh. I think you have unrealistic expectations of what a "middle class" lifestyle is. The fact that you can afford rent in a big city, private school tuition, or cleaning help is middle class, all the more so being able to afford all three at once. Being able to afford a down payment without cutting out conveniences like prepared foods or cleaning help is upper middle class, being able to afford it while sending your kids to private school and living in a major city is upper class. Just my experience.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 22 2012, 9:39 am
amother wrote:

OP here:

I was expecting at least to be able to save up to buy a house - I think that's to be expected for someone in middle class.


Expected for a middle class American family that can live anywhere and send its children to public school. Not for an Orthodox Jewish family that has to live within walking distance of an Orthodox shul and certainly not for an Orthodox Jewish family living in NYC and sending children to a hebrew day school. Your $98K income doesn't go that far in NYC, although I do believe that there is a lot of room for you to cut costs that you may simply be unwilling to do.

Choose your priorities. If your priority is living in Jewish Brooklyn, chances are you will never be able to buy a house. If your priority is buying a house, look outside of the Metro NY area. Places like Cleveland are becoming popular because they have good-sized jewish communities and reasonable housing costs. But perhaps not for long. Soon as the frum jews start moving in in numbers, the price of houses shoots up.

But a house, two cars, a couple of kids in yeshiva, household help, name-brand clothing and the other things you mention, all at the same time in Jewish Brooklyn on an income of under 100K is not a realistic expectation. As I've said before--you have to set your priorities. If you insist on the household help, the convenience food etc. then you can't have the house or the second car. If you want the house, then you have to bite the bullet and give up some of your current luxuries.

Or take a second job. Many people do.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jun 22 2012, 4:11 pm
OP here:

We would LOVE to move out of town! We even have our sights set on a community that has housing in the 200K range and reasonable tuition. There are 2 things holding us back:

1. Jobs in that area are not as easy to come by as they are in Brooklyn, and DH has been looking, believe me.

2. The rent is not much cheaper there than it is here, and we don't have the down payment or security for purchasing a house just yet.

I have taken all of your posts to heart and we plan to start saving every receipt and keeping track of cash outflow so we can see where everything is going. Unfortunately, DH and I sometimes disagree about fundamental spending priorities. He doesn't care about the mini-van as much but would rather me get cleaning help and takeout as I'm a much nicer person to him since I'm calmer Smile .
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ElTam




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 22 2012, 5:18 pm
When we were saving to buy a house, we lived in a tiny, tiny 1 BR apartment. We never ate out or had take-out. We ate meat once a week. No cleaning lady. No extras. We both worked full time and did part-time freelance work on the side.

A close friend of mine talks about when her family was saving to buy a house. Both parents made good money. And they ate mac and cheese or soup five or six nights a week.

Before my inlaws bought their house, they drove a car that was quite literally held together with duct table and coat hangers. You could see the ground through the floorboards.

It doesn't just fall in your lap.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Jun 23 2012, 10:14 pm
Yes to that. Dh and I married when we were older and had worked a number of years, so we had savings. Still, we lived in a 1 BR apartment, with our kid in our room till we moved (when he was 2+.) No cleaning help, no car, ate very simply, dressed ds in hand me downs, thrift shop stuff or no-name clothes. No new sheitels for me, and almost no new clothes except a very few maternity pieces. Dh worked FT+ and I worked PT. We were able to buy a house after 4 years of marriage, but didn't get a car till three years and two kids later.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Jun 27 2012, 4:08 pm
amother wrote:
DH and I sat down to work out a budget as he got a new job and we would like to get a 2nd car. We live in Brooklyn and between the 2 of us are earning $98,100 gross annual. We have 2 school age kids and a baby - but we are barely getting by! Our monthly rent is standard NY - $1800, and our monthly utilities amount to about $300 monthly. Thank G-d DH gets health insurance from work, albeit with co-pays of $25 per visit. Kids' monthly tuition is not as crazy as some others', it's about $1100. Monthly food bill is about $1000. By the time we're done with childcare, cleaning help (once a week 5 hours) and clothing (nothing fancy, standard gap/old navy stuff with one or 2 shabbos outfits), WE HAVE NOTHING LEFT at the end of the month. Nothing for a car and definitely nothing for savings.

How crazy is it that we're considered middle class but I'm feeling so poor? We have a 10 year old 5 seater car that we squash into and I've been dying for a mini-van but it's just out of my reach.


Does your school provide hot lunch and do you pay for it? That's one way to cut down the tuition a bit.

Frankly, your food bill is too high. Depending on where you live in Brooklyn, can you go to KRM or Moishe's? Both places deliver and KRM has valet parking.

I would strongly suggest that you join BJ's or Costco and get your paper goods and toiletries from there. Costco's Kirkland dipes and wipes are excellent and they are on the level of Pampers/Huggies. You can get gas, cereal and other basic pantry items in bulk too.

In terms of clothing, you really should go to the GAP Factory Store in Downtown Brooklyn. They carry seasonal items there and the clearance section for gap baby/kids is awesome! I wouldn't suggest going to the Old Navy Outlet in Ditmas Park unless you have the patience to deal with the ghetto attitude and disorganized stock.
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jkw




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 29 2012, 4:14 pm
the BEST help ever can be found on http://kosheronabudget.com/

it rocks!
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