Tuition is killing us

Barbara

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 12:27 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

black sheep wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Bottom line:

Life isn't fair. At least the way we perceive fair to be.

I mean we have to be Jewish and we have to be frum and therefore we can't buy the local supermarket's weekly ham special. And we have to use our vacation days for Yom Tov. And we have to skip our work picnic because it's on a Saturday.

But is this what we want from life? Is this what matters at the end of the day?

Or is life about striving to be a better Jew, strengthening our connection with G-d, passing on the mesora to our children?

I get that tuition is too high. I understand it's a big, big problem. I'm also frustrated with it.

But looking at it with the attitude that we should be having all these other luxuries in life because we are entitled to them because we did all the right things: went to the right colleges, got the right job, etc is looking at it from the perspective of the average American, not the average Orthodox Jew.
Being comfortable in your lifestyle is second to the main purpose of being in the world. It's extra. It's not a matter of fair or unfair...at the end of the day, with children who will be ovdei Hashem because they got the chinuch you felt was necessary for their spiritual development, you come out ahead. That is infinite...l'sof kol hadoros. Don't underestimate its worth.

Maybe we should say it's not fair that the average Joe doesn't have such meaning in his life.

Think about what matters, and then think if what you have is fair.

oh, yes! good point! life isn't fair, so let's never fix any problems. why try making things better? that would be an American notion that we should try to make the world a better place. it is much more jewish to just take it and never say anything. you get that tuition is a big problem, but you are apparently a better person than all of us because you would never try to fix it. because, as you say, that is so unjewish to try to fix a problem.

Please stop twisting my words.

Did I say I was against coming up with new solutions to help with the tuition crisis?

No, not at all.

I was upset at the ATTITUDE that "why should we have to pay for tuition and not have luxuries like people who get to send to public school".

THAT is what I was talking about. Please re-read my post and see if you can find any of your preconceived notions in it.

Two thumbs up.

There's a real difference between "Its becoming increasingly difficult for the average family to pay tuition. We need to come up with ways to reduce the cost, and new ways to fund schools" on the one hand, and "I work hard, I deserve a house and two cars and annual vacations; why should I have to pay tuition at a level that takes away from that"

Look, I'm frustrated as the next guy. I just got off the phone with a school that is demanding that I produce a report that they admit does not exist. In order to obtain such a report, I'd have to spend several thousand dollars. I explained that I have a husband with multiple serious medical conditions who is only working to pay tuition, since we get no aid, that I flat out cannot afford the obtain the report, and suggested that if they want it, they should pay for it. (And I should mention that they have two people on staff who COULD produce the report, although its not their job to do so.) They suggested that maybe someone else can cut us a break on the cost. Gee, thanks.

amother

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 12:31 pm

I'm the single parent amother who complained about the $3mil for the asifa.

In order to help clarify for imamothers out of the NY area... I'm a single parent who works in a great professional job. My gross pay is about $100K (B"H). Between federal, state and city tax, as well as medical and dental insurance, my net annual pay is about $60K.

I CANNOT cut medical, dental, or taxes.

Of the 60K, I rent a small, one-bedroom apt - which I share with my child - for $1400 in the 5 boroughs (which isn't expensive at all). That is almost $17K. Which leaves 43K. After scholarship and financial aid, my school, transportation and afterschool bill for elementary school in a mid-level MO school in NY is $24K. This leave 19K for 12 months of all living expenses. This breaks down to 1500/month to cover, all groceries, car (I commute), utilities, clothes, babysitting, household expenses, day camp, emergencies, and on and on.

This is a pitiful amount and I barely cover my expenses. As of September, I will be short each month.

This doesn't every calculate a 6-month living expense savings plan, retirement, or much less owning a home.

I am not an unusual case. I have many friends who are in the same situation.

The fact is, that in the public school world, even when you are 55 and working and all your children have graduated school, a portion of your taxes still go toward the public school.

In the orthodox community, we only get the 12 years that our children are in school to pay the tuitions. If the communities would band together and allow parents to pay tuition over 30 years, such as in a mortgage, the tuition bill would be much more affordable for each family.

For instance let's say over 12 years at 24K (assuming the number doesn't go up), my tuition bill for my one child is 288K. By paying it in full each year my child is in school, I average a payment of about 2K a month. This leaves little else to live off of.

If I could pay the 288K over 30 or 20 years, it would be 9600 annually/800 month on the 30 year plan and 14400 annually/1200 month on the 20 year plan.

This would be a much more reasonable way for me to be able to survive and not have to either go into debt for my Jewish child to have a Jewish education or have to choose between feeding my family, using electricity, or educating my child.

Tova

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 5:16 pm

I had some downtime at work today so I perused guidestar.com for 990's of yeshivos whose name I recognized. [Several months after 990's are filed with the IRS they are posted to guidestar. All information is available to the public EXCEPT Schedule B which is contributors to the organization over $5,000 or 2% of total contributions.] The disclaimer here is that my firm has a paid subscription to guidestar so I may be able to view things that are not available without a paid subscription. Quite a bit of info is available for free but not everything. So I don't know if these links will work for everyone.

To make it interesting I chose a yeshivish school - Yeshiva Ktana of Passaic - and a MO one - YNJ. Both are geographically close to each other. (And I have close family members employed by both :-).

Yeshiva Ktana: http://www.guidestar.org/Repor.....23304
Latest 990 available - year ended June 30, 2010
Total revenue = $13,214,372
Total expenses = $12,746,505
Their only compensated officer is the president of the board who earned $75,000.
The principal (OY - they spelled it PRINCIPLE) earned $110,000.
(The names of these individuals are listed but I feel funny posting them.)
There were no other individuals earning over $100,000.
Salaries made up $8,556,425 of the $12 million in total expenses listed above.
Utilities are $344,065. They are paying $1,943,670 in interest expense (mortgage?).
A lot of other information available.

YNJ: http://www.guidestar.org/Repor.....26652
Latest 990 available - year ended June 30, 2010
Total revenue = $11,201,426
Total expenses = $10,365,906
Salaries = $6,444,732. Utilities = $238,199. Interest = $477,872.
In terms of compensation:
Dean earned $214,936
Business Manager $111,682
Principals = $136,695, $144,735, $137,063
Guidance (counselor?) = $128,672
Those are the top individuals compensated over $100,000 that are required to be reported. There could be others earning over $100,000.

ora_43

Sat, Jun 23 2012, 5:17 pm

black sheep wrote:

even giving you all the benefit of the doubt, at best I think your post is a cop out. posters are not complaining that they want to live lavish lifestyles but cannot do so because of tuition. if they were, I'd agree with you partially that it might be a matter of priorities. but posters are complaining that they are making six figure incomes and are not able to make their basic bills, let alone save for a house or retirement because their tuition is close to and sometimes greater than 100K! this is no longer a matter of prioritizing your child's chinuch over the comforts of life.

The post right above hers said this:

Quote:

And I think the point of the thread is that we put in all this education and work to make a nice living and at the end of the day we're not living nearly as nicely as the averge Joe down the street utilizing the public school system. $150K for us is nothing like $150K for Joe. And it seems unfair.

And there have been a few posts from people upset that they can't take vacations.

I don't think it's unreasonable to address that attitude, even if there are also other people with other concerns. (and I don't think Hashem Yaazor was bashing people or accusing them of wanting something "lavish," just trying to put things in a positive light so people would feel better about the decisions they've made)

shalhevet

Sat, Jun 23 2012, 5:26 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I don't have time to quote and answer properly here (almost Shabbos_ but, black sheep, who told you what is more important - kolellim or schools? And which kind of school? what made you say that it's a problem that people are designating money for men learning vs. children learning.

And you make it sound like our purpose in this world is to find jobs which make lots of money to fund how the community chooses to educate their children. Kind of like measuring a person's worth according to how many $$ he makes. Hashem gives parnassa - maybe He has a different system in mind.

Shalhevet, I just want to clarify something. If you had enough money to either give one child an education for a year OR support a man in Kollel for a year, what would you choose? (You have to pick one or the other - no cop out answers)

I really don't know. I also would have to know other factors - am I supporting the child's Torah education or a gym and secular studies? What kind of level am I supporting the kolel family on? Is the avreich's wife a SAHM and they are expecting the community to support them, or is she working and they can't manage just on her income?

Also, it is the father's responsibility to teach his son Torah (or pay someone to do so), not the community's, so can/ will the father do it?

And after all that I would ask a shaila (sorry if I copped out - I didn't say I knew which was more important).

sarahd

Sat, Jun 23 2012, 9:37 pm

Tova wrote:

I have two comments:

1) Do the salary figures include parsonage? If not, then I would be a little upset that the "principle" is earning over $120,000 (and that might not include other benefits - for example, in the school I worked for, the principal and some other lucky individuals had their health insurance paid by the school. The proletariat, who were of course earning much, much less, had to pay for their own insurance. In addition, tuition for their kids attending other schools was paid pre-tax.)

2) When is the position of dean of YNJ going to become available? At $214,936 I would be able to pay all my kids' tuitions and afford a house - and probably some vacations too.

(BTW, almost no information is available on guidestar unless you're a subscriber.)

Tova

Sat, Jun 23 2012, 9:59 pm

sarahd wrote:

1) Yes - this is from page 7 Part VII of the form. There is a column for wages (has to match the W-2 or 1099 issued; in fact this section always reports calendar year numbers even if the organization files on a fiscal year) and another column for other compensation and benefits paid by the organization (it includes health insurance, deferred compensation and retirement, etc.). For Yeshiva Ktana I added the 2 numbers together in the salary number as the benefits number was large. For YNJ I didn't bother adding in the benefits because it was only several thousand dollars in relation to salaries.

2) I don't know. A close relative of mine was hired to an administrative position there (not dean but pretty close) within the past couple of years...after a lot of experience (teaching and administrative) in another MO school.

yummymummy

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 12:03 am

Tova wrote:

and do you know what tuition is at both?

gp2.0

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 12:06 am

Tova wrote:

Confused. What happens to the money filling the gap between revenue and expenses?

400K for Yeshiva Katana and 800K for YNJ?

yummymummy

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 12:33 am

chavamom wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

so please tell us what is very wrong? it's simple math really, where do you think that there are thousands of dollars worth of waste and inefficiencies in our schools?

I can tell you what is wrong. No school - even the Horace Manns and Country Days out there - are able to survive on tuition alone. In most cases, it is the endowment that provides the bulk of the income. We have several problems. One is that the community is growing exponentially - 2 grandparents might have had 3 or 4 children who then produced 20+ grandchildren. Yet those 2 grandparents are probably the only ones in the whole scheme of things that could donate to an endowment at this point. The second is that there is a problem with fundraising among people who have graduated from institutions. They may be too strapped paying their own children's tuition OR we have the phenomena of people feeling like they already spent 6 figures in tuition over the years....and now you want them to KEEP paying? And thirdly, you have the problem of ever diversified institutions. Yes, it tailors your child's education to more nuances of hashkafa, etc. BUT it also produces a huge increase in cost by now having to support 2 institutions (or 3 or 4 or 50) instead of one.

Thank you! Some actual proposed solutions instead of just complaints. But unfortunately as you've pointed out there are problems which still need to be addressed:

No endowment whether established in the past or today would be able to keep up with the growth in our community; rates of return are just not that high, so while an endowment might be able to supplement fundraising efforts it will never be able to dramatically cut tuition expenses.

Which leads us to the need for continual fundraising and to your points about families either currently paying tuition or those who feel they've paid enough, I'll add that our schools are also in competition with dozens of other worthy tzedakos for the limited charity funds available. And if the choice is between donating to tomche shabbos so my neighbors can put food on their table or to the local yeshiva so the parent body won't have to sacrifice the family vacation they "deserve" because they "work hard", well it's not a very tough one, now then is it? Community leaders do need to continually reinforce the need to donate to our local mosdos before supporting every other worthy cause out there, and on that note, I think that the tuition structure needs to be revamped a bit. I read a while a go about a community (I can't recall which unfortunately) where the schools have a minimum tuition per child which, together with fundraising, will cover the schools costs and they feel parents should be able to afford. Now if parents cannot afford this amount, either due to family size or their economic situation, there is a community wide fund which they can apply to for scholarships. I'm believe more people would be willing to donate to such a fund, rather than donating directly to a yeshiva where they might worry if their tzedaka money is being spent wisely, either through financial mismanagement or other parents taking advantage.

I think your third point is actually being addressed by schools pooling their resources to take advantage of economies of scale by purchasing supplies in bulk or combining back office staffs. Certain costs, like teacher salaries would obviously not be effected and depending on the number of students, neither would the principal(s) but yes, every effort should be made to consolidate costs and I believe many schools are making an effort on this front (and the Hamodia article seemed to indicate as much as well).

Tova

Sun, Jun 24 2012, 8:33 am

sarahd - see this:
http://www.guidestar.org/rxg/h......aspx

Do I have to pay to see 990s on GuideStar?

There is no charge to view the 990s GuideStar has received from the IRS and nonprofits, but you must register to access them.

So you do have to register, but don't need to subscribe to see the 990's.

groisamama - probably not, if they are a religious organization. It would be determined when they complete their Application for Exemption -they would get an IRS Determination Letter that would let them know their status and whether they need to submit annual filings. Nothing illegal or shady going on here; if they don't need to file we wouldn't advise them to file :-).

See: http://www.irs.gov/charities/a......html