Tuition is killing us

saw50st8

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 11:55 am

black sheep wrote:

amother wrote:

I dont believe being able to "afford" tution is what matters.
Most families can scratch together the money, that doesnt mean we could afford it.
My school tution should not be 45% of my total annual ernings, tution is going up much faster then my pay is.
Why should we never be able to own a home or take a vacation because if we do the school will want more tution.
My school actually clearly asks prents were we went to for yom tov, when we took our last vacation, how much it costed etc.
Seriously, if I took a vacation for a few days that means I cant get a break on tution? so now we are not allowed to take break from life withought worrying what the school will think of us? will they increase our tution? will they approve a scholarship?
This system has to change and fast, because I doubt I am the only one fed up pwith this attitude, that we have to give so much for yeshivas and school,

you have a good point. I also think it is way beyond reasonable that most families with two working parents have no hope of ever buying a house because all their "extra" earnings is going towards tuition. and it does seem greedy on the schools part to look at everything you do and think "hey, they should have given that money to me!"but one thing I disagree with you is that "most parents can scrape together the money." this isn't true. many parents cannot. I am in the same boat as you where tuition is every extra last penny, but I have friends who cannot even "scrape together" what it takes to pay the tuition. so they either pay it, and build up debt on their credit cards for such frivolities as groceries and clothing, or they put off paying and are constantly harassed by the school and have to go around asking their friends for "loans" (which they can never pay back.)

I know I get flamed when I say this, but a yeshiva education is a luxury for most kids. Learning Torah? Not a luxury. Having someone take over your responsibility to mechanech your kids? Luxury.

Then, on the flip side, tzedaka is used for scholarships. Someone was once telling me that she was considering asking for a tuition reduction because life was getting expensive and her budget was tight. She wanted to get her daughter into an extra curricular activity. I asked her if she would go to a tzedaka fund and ask for $200 (or whatever it was) to send her daughter there. She said no.

This is the second generation that really is 100% in Yeshiva (for the most part in large Jewish communities). The system is back breaking for most families. But, its a choice, even if you don't view it as one.

saw50st8

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 12:08 pm

amother wrote:

It is not a choice!!!
There is nothing wrong with wanting to put my child in an extra caricular activity.
With both my husband and I working, we shoul dbe able to afford to get a house or take two vacations a year, but it reality after tution day camp is choking us, let alone an extra caricular activity.
Jewish education should not be the onlything I can afford.
We work so hard all day and still get nowere in life.
My husband has a very good job as do I, in any other society we would be considered middle class, here we are struggling and thats not right.

Why do you feel like its not a choice?

I get the feeling - I would LOVE not to have to pay tuition. Here, the schools are $14-18,000 for elementary school. This fall, an affordable school is opening for $9,000. Yes, the affordable one is $9,000.

But I recognize that its a choice. I don't necessarily like my options, but its a choice.

Who should pay for your kids education if not you?

Amother, the only way the system will change is if people are corageous. If you want to home school, get started.

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 12:14 pm

amother wrote:

I agree that Jewish education expenses are out of control (at least in the US) and IMHO public schools often do better for less.

I also was raised to think that if I went to college and went to work and married someone who did likewise, I would be able to afford pretty much anything I wanted. But that's not true - I can afford what I have money to pay for, that's all. I am not entitled to a particular lifestyle just because my husband and I both have jobs. It's eye-opening to realize that life is expensive, and that jobs don't cover as much as we would like, but that's the way it is.

If you don't want to pay for an expensive private school, don't. If you feel strongly that private Jewish education is every child's right regardless of ability to pay, then work with your community to find the funding to make it possible.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 12:29 pm

Yes I hear it's less in Israel

Is it insane to mention Torah Home Schooling? Spend some time googl.ing and see what's out there. There have been some efforts in this direction, I think.

Sometimes you have to put in muscle instead of money, and creat value where the ta.x man can't see it. If you hired a cook, she would need a ton of benefits and so forth, so no, you cook yourself. Well, same principle.

There ought to be a level above Home Schooling, where the Home Schoolers are taught how to Home School. There probably is already. If you network, and join, and are part of a supportive hub, and have monthly face to face experiences with other Home Schoolers so the kids can socialize and get face to face instructions with teachers they usually study with on the computer, it might not be so bad. Of course there would be costs, but much less, obviously. There's legal rigamarole too but you roll up your sleeves. Don't burn bridges; be hugely nice to the schools you are abandoning; you might need them again some day. And they are trying as hard as they can. But we have a very nice standard of living now and their teachers also want to own a house, go on vacations and blah blah blah. Actually, the teachers are saints. But they have to live too, and they have kids in the exact same school you do.

If you need a vacation, you might not be having enough fun in your life. If your life were basically a blast, you wouldn't need a vacaction, or not nearly so many. Vacation with children? You are working too hard.

Just think. No bullying, no time wasted on the bus, no shlepping through the halls. Home schooling takes a few hours a day if that, much less time. At your own pace. Yes, it's a new job. So you figure it out. It pays very well, obviously.

There might be hybrid situations crafted. A little of this, a little of that. One has to think outside the box. The point is to get the information into the child. How can that be done? Tutors? The socialization stuff can be worked on. Nobody is suggesting you or the children never leave the house. Field trips. Meet-ups. Scheduled events. Structure. Plans. Curricula that are followed. Materials that are obtained from qualified central sources. Hot lines for help when it is needed. Not wandering in the wilderness alone.

Full disclosure: I have never done this.

Just musing.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Thu, Jun 21 2012, 12:40 pm; edited 4 times in total

black sheep

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 12:29 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

black sheep wrote:

amother wrote:

oh, I completely agree that it is a choice. it is a choice to live in an insularish frum community, and raise your children yeshivish. it is a choice to be a part of a community that shuns anyone who pulls their children out of yeshiva to homeschool or go to public school. the choice is whether or not you want to remain a part of your community, because if you chose to live in a frum community, you don't have any choice about sending your children to yeshiva and paying the tuition. but you can always move and become very modern MO, and accept that your children will never have frum friends. it is your choice.

Barbara

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 1:12 pm

black sheep wrote:

Please tell me that I'm reading the bolded language wrong.

In any case, you're right that the first few kids in public school will be considered pioneers, and that they will be shunned by some people. But even more people will be interested. And the numbers will grow, because far too many people are drowning in the cost of a yeshiva education.

sky

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 1:51 pm

Do you realize that most of society does not send their children to private school and still cannot afford expensive vacations? I work with engineers, and they don't really spend huge on vacations (my manager does send to private school but most don't).

And to those who think that getting educated means 100,000 plus income for a family, check out the averages. Only 10% of Americans earn over 100,000 per household.

And to say if you are educated you are going to earn a lot of money, is the American lie. Besides being saddled with student loans that are many times worse then a mortgage (and much more horrible if you used cost of living loans). And try finding a job today in large cities. I have 2 friends whose husbands went to good law schools and they are working for free or commission based just to get experience and fill up a resume for well over a year, while paying off their loans.

And if you work, and are frum, when do you plan on taking vacation. Dh and I work full time and barely have enough days off for yomim tovim, forget vacation, and that is after being with the same company for 7+ years. When do you even have time to take those?

I only have one child in school so far and am grateful that my tuition isn't crazy (about $5000 + building fund and fundraising that I can take as maaser and tax deduction). He is getting an excellent education, there is lots of staff that are on top of things, they have a big building, grounds to play on. (but the class size is very large.) They also always pay their staff on time. I'm just wondering why the schools you are describing are so much money. Do they offer so much more?

Last edited by sky on Thu, Jun 21 2012, 1:54 pm; edited 2 times in total

perquacky

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 1:52 pm

In any case, you're right that the first few kids in public school will be considered pioneers, and that they will be shunned by some people. But even more people will be interested. And the numbers will grow, because far too many people are drowning in the cost of a yeshiva education.[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, a few families in the Five Towns tried to do just that a few years ago--they sent their kids to public school and found someone to teach them limudei kodesh subjects in the afternoon. Those families got so much flak from other families and from the rabbeim in their community that they abondoned their plan pretty quickly. Truly sad.

I am so dissatisfied with the general studies curriculum at my children's yeshivas. My one son who spent a few years in public school (inclusion class) learned so much more that the ones in yeshiva. And the teachers were so well trained and educated.

And to say that kids in yeshivas are better behaved is just not true. My middle schooler is bullied on a daily basis at his yeshiva, cursed at, and harrassed both physically and verbally. That kind of behavior is not tolerated in public school, and there are consequences. Yeshivas tend to sweep those incidences under the rug. But that's a conversation for another time.

natrualgeek

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 1:59 pm

sky wrote:

First of all you are right most families cant afford extras even if they are not paying private school tution.
but the fact is that we would be able to, my husband put himself through school as did I.
Now when the hard work should be paying off it not. Because the schools see how much you are making and just rais tution on us because they figure well they can afford it.
When are we soppused to buy a house? save for retirement? save money for our childrens education?
it is financialy imposible for us to save money whenmy tution goes up faster then my salary, we are lucky that theonly debt we have is student loans and nothing else.
Also in the school my son goes to the classes are smaller but I pay much morethen you do my base tution before fees are 7500. For that they do not get much more the nsmaller classes.
They do have very good teachers!
But they also give off school any chance they get, jewish holidays, secular holidays, and any other oppurtunity.

yummymummy

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 2:11 pm

For all you amother complaining that tuition is too high - who do you expect to pay for your children's education? who should be paying their teacher's salary? who should be paying the building mortgage and maintenance costs? who should pay the gas, electric and water bills? you really think the school administrators are making millions off your tuition dollars?

and the sense of entitlement on this thread is truly disturbing - "I" work to "I" SHOULD be able to afford private school tuition PLUS a house PLUS a family vacation... If you EARN enough money you can afford all of that. If not then you have to make choices, what is most important to you?

amother

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 2:15 pm

yummymummy wrote:

First of all yes the administration goes on vacation do I?
and I dont need to pay them for a secular education when I pay taxes and can get it for free
Why cant they offer me afternoon education daily and I will pay for that.
These schools get tax bralkes left and right because they are a "charity" or school.
You think its ok that we will be going into debt to pay these tution fees???????
YEs I work hard and I would like to not have to go into debt