SPINOFF on "tuition is killing us"

eytse

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 10:33 pm

I posted (anonymously) on the "tuition is killing us" thread about sending kids to public school. I wrote that my husband makes about 100K a year and that when I finish grad school (Ph.D.) in 2-3 years, I will likely be able to make about 55K. We have two children (not yet in school) and I can't imagine not having more. If we have 4 kids, when they're all in school, that would be about 100K annually in tuition costs at the kind of MO day school that is really the only option, hashkafically, for us. So, that means I would need to gross 150K in addition to his income, in order for us to pay tuition AND continue paying our mortgage, student loans, savings, IRAs, kids college, etc.

We have been married for 5 years, and we have never truly gone on vacation. We went "away" for a long weekend once the first year we were married, and once last month, for our 5th anniversary. Literally, 4 nights in a bed and breakfast. Nothing fancy. My problem with tuition is not that I want to go on lavish vacations, it's that I want to achieve a reasonable amount of financial security.

So, here is the point of my post: I need some REAL advice. Should I abandon the academic work that I deeply care about, in order to try and make more money? What jobs would make me that much, anyway? The only thing I can come up with, maybe, is real estate, which might make me that much after 5-10 years of working my behind off... but it's still a big gamble... Any other ideas about higher paying jobs, anyway? I'm super-smart and capable, just the product of an excellent liberal arts education with few tangible "job skills"...

OR, should I pursue my academic career, abandon the idea of a day school education, and know that I'm removing myself and my children from the MO community? But at least I'll be able to retire, and maybe allow my kids to go to college without saddling themselves with insurmountable debt...

OR, should I throw my financial aid application in, and subject myself to the humiliation of being forced to account for every latte that I put on my credit card? And turn over every cent to the school and not be able to save? Or, is this even actually true? Do MO day schools (think Ramaz, SAR, etc.) actually demand to see your credit card statements? Do they allow you to continue your 401K contributions? How much more do they allow you to save? How does this ACTUALLY work?

Can someone give me REAL advice? I am loosing too much sleep over this, please, someone tell me what I should do?

amother

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 10:47 pm

I am the amother who posted there that I teach at Ramaz. While I can't tell you what to do, I can tell you that they are not that picky when giving tuition breaks- they don't want you to forgo another child just because of tuition. They will be particularly accommodating if your career is going somewhere- is that 55k to start, or is that what it tops out at? Because if it's just to start, they will give you the break now in anticipation of your being able to pay more later. They also usually give discounts to 3rd and 4th children if you ask.

I hear SAR is also pretty accommodating. A woman in my neighborhood has 6 kids and has sent all of them to either SAR or Ramaz (some are still in school). She does not pay 6 full tuitions. The schools know she has 6 kids and they come up with something workable.

If your future salary is going to top out at 55k, I would consider other options. But if there is room to grow and get above 100k, then don't worry about the time it takes you to get there.

amother

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 10:56 pm

I think you should continue the academic work you are in. This is what you have chosen to do and what you have already invested a considerable amount of work and money in. I think these days especially there are very few jobs which will almost right away give you the kind of pay your are suggesting that you need. B"H your DH is making a good salary by all standards and you will be making a good salary as well. Now I don't know where you live or your lifestyle or anything really but, do you think you could move? Check out different communities and their schools? If that is possible where you are without DH having to give up his job? Maybe he could still get to place of work from somewhere else than where you currently are. Or send the kids to a school where you don't necessarily have exactly the same hashkafa but it may cost less?
On the other hand if you are ok with it, you can send to public school and supplement on the side. 25K per child is insane. From my experiences with scholarship committees they do tend to look at everything, bank accounts, trust funds, mortgage, any income, any expense, tax returns, etc. you get the picture. I don't know, in the end it's simply what you decide. Either you want a Jewish school or not. If not the choice is simple, if you want it then you have to figure out where and how. It's very hard. Take it one step at a time. Put them in the school, now you only have 2. Who knows what will be. If at one point you decide that it's not feasible anymore you can make changes. Sorry I can't really give you better advise. Good luck

amother

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 11:13 pm

amother wrote:

to the amother that teaches at Ramaz, have you ever seen them give a very very super low tuition if the parent simply cannot pay and obviously can prove this with all the necessary documentation. What is the lowest they would go?

I don't know specifics. I know that the 4-5 kid families (obviously that includes 5+, though in the Ramaz community, those are rare) are not paying full tuition for all, and that they do offer some sort of discount for the 3rd child. I don't know what you mean by very low. I know that they are open to letting a family pay less now while they are in school or residency, knowing that they will be making A LOT more later and able to pay more then. Unlike most of the schools, they do NOT build tuition into the scholarship; the tuition is high because they pay there teachers comparably to public schools and offer the same benefits, and because they have amazing facilities and amenities. Scholarships come out of their hefty endowment (which did unfortunately take a hit due to Madoff).

I teach LK there and am quite a bit frummer than the school (though it is my alma mater), so my kids won't go there, hence I do not know specifics. But being from that community (as well as having siblings who are current students) I know all the people on the scholarship community. I know which ones are the most understanding. I can set up an email if you want to know who to talk to.

amother

Thu, Jun 21 2012, 11:15 pm

I don't know specifics. I know that the 4-5 kid families (obviously that includes 5+, though in the Ramaz community, those are rare) are not paying full tuition for all, and that they do offer some sort of discount for the 3rd child. I don't know what you mean by very low. I know that they are open to letting a family pay less now while they are in school or residency, knowing that they will be making A LOT more later and able to pay more then. Unlike most of the schools, they do NOT build tuition into the scholarship; the tuition is high because they pay there teachers comparably to public schools and offer the same benefits, and because they have amazing facilities and amenities. Scholarships come out of their hefty endowment (which did unfortunately take a hit due to Madoff).
[/quote]

Sorry for the typos. I meant to say they do not build scholarship into the tuition. Also, I meant THEIR tuition, not there Smile

Sorry, grading lots of finals...

ora_43

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 2:25 am

Why would public school be a better option than a more "right wing" school?

If you can trust your child to not stop observing mitzvot despite social pressure in public school, and trust yourself to supplement Torah studies, why not trust your child to not take on a different path than yours and a frum school, and trust yourself to supplement with Zionism and psakim in favor of things like women's prayer?

You're far from the first parent I've heard talking as if the two options are 1. a Jewish school that fits your hashkafa or 2. public school, and I don't understand. Here in Israel I know several families that have sent to hareidi schools when they couldn't find an affordable DL school. Isn't that a much better risk? I don't want my kids to be hareidi, but far better that than for them to stop keeping mitzvot.

The most common way is to send kids to hareidi schools from gan through 6th-8th grade, then transfer them to a more hashkafically appropriate school for high school. My dh and his brothers did that, and he's the most "frummie" of them at middle-of-the-line DL.

I think in America it would work best OOT, where schools are generally more flexible on their hashkafa and with a more diverse student body. And that's even better, because housing is usually cheaper there, too.

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 7:15 am

There are new alternatives popping up in MO and pluralistic education, including co-op and "blended" (traditional mixed with online) models, designed to reduce the tuition burden without compromising education. By the time your kids are in school, there may be more, perhaps in your area. I recall that this came up on imamother a while back, so you could search the site, or go to Google. Maybe a few people will chime in with more details - or if I have time I'll try to search a few for you. I hope this helps!

TranquilityAndPeace

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 7:35 am

Would it be possible for you to find 10-25 hours a week to start an additional business, without giving up your chosen career?

Real estate is a good idea; I find that most wealthy people invested in real estate. My DH invests and manages properties. A newly married guy just asked my DH to help him find a 50K house to buy here in Baltimore. A lot of NY and Israeli investors buy here in Baltimore because you can get decent houses for 50K. (Not anywhere near the frum neighborhoods though!) This newlywed will buy this 50K house for cash. The rent is $900 a month. 900 x 12 = $10,800. That means, in 5 years the house is paid off. We can say in 6 years it's paid off, just in case there are a few months of vacancy over the years between tenants, and repairs that need to be done.

So, after year 6, he has an additional income of $900 a month. And if he doesn't want to be bothered with hearing from the tenant that the house needs a plumber, or showing the house to prospective tenants in case the present one leaves, he can hire guys like my husband to manage it for him. My husband will take the first month's rent, 10% of the rent of other months (so this owner will get 810 a month instead of 900), and charge some kind of fee each time a repair has to be taken care of.

Yes, it's a risk. Neighborhoods change, mortgage rates change, if you rent it out to a family paying with Section 8, those laws change. I think in this day and age, having an IRA is a risk- with over 14 billion of debt, who is to say that this country's money will be worth anything when I want to retire in 35 years?

Another idea is to look at creating a portfolio of websites. I have a free course that teaches this at http://onlinegelt.com. I have had several months of 5 figure profits, (most of the time it's a healthy 4 figure monthly profit) and I work at this part time. You can double your salary from your chosen field by doing this part time; assuming you can find enough hours in the day to do so.

saw50st8

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 7:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

Why would public school be a better option than a more "right wing" school?

Ora,

Its a lot easier to explain to your young children black and white. A 6 year old can understand "pig is not kosher" but might have a harder time with chalav yisrael is ok for us but not them. And that's the tip of the iceberg. Depending on how far to the right the school is, I would choose PS. I am biased though because I went to a RW elemenatary school from a MO family and I had some teachers that really messed up my mindset for a few years. My MO HS was really instrumental in helping me balance my haskafa.

Tamiri

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 8:01 am

saw50st8 wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Why would public school be a better option than a more "right wing" school?

I totally agree. However, if I found school to be THAT much of a problem financially/hashkafically - I think I'd move before using PS as a last resort.

Ruchel

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 8:10 am

Tamiri wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Why would public school be a better option than a more "right wing" school?

I totally agree. However, if I found school to be THAT much of a problem financially/hashkafically - I think I'd move before using PS as a last resort.

Me too. But sometimes there's only one Jewish school around, and parnassa (or being the rabbi!) forces you to stay.

ora_43

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 9:23 am

saw50st8 wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Why would public school be a better option than a more "right wing" school?

Ora,

Its a lot easier to explain to your young children black and white. A 6 year old can understand "pig is not kosher" but might have a harder time with chalav yisrael is ok for us but not them.

How is one more black and white than the other? "They think everyone should drink chalav Israel, but we don't think that's necessary." "They think it's OK for Jews to drive on Shabbat, but we don't."

And anyway, it's not hashkafic differences so much as social issues. Eventually your kids will be old enough to understand the concept of different psakim, but as they get older being different only gets harder. I'd much much rather my dd feel pressure to wear tights and keep chalav Israel like her friends do, than feel pressure to go to the beach on Saturday like her friends do.

Quote:

And that's the tip of the iceberg. Depending on how far to the right the school is, I would choose PS. I am biased though because I went to a RW elemenatary school from a MO family and I had some teachers that really messed up my mindset for a few years. My MO HS was really instrumental in helping me balance my haskafa.

And you think the transition from public school to an MO high school would have been easier?? I really doubt that.

I've seen far, far more families send their kids to more hareidi-leaning elementary schools and switch to MO high schools with good results, than successfully "upgrade" from a school with poor or no Judaic studies to a frum school.

saw50st8

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 11:49 am

Ora,

I think its harder to be told day in and day out "Oh your family does that? Assur. Your Rabbi said that? He's wrong." (yes, that happened to me consistently throughout elementary school and really made me question Orthodoxy - I was one confused 14 year old who probably would be OTD if I didn't have a solid foundation in my HS. There was NOTHING from my elementary school I thought worth salvaging and looking back I agree with my assessment)

While its hard to go against the grain when everyone is totally different, it makes a more clear separation.

But that's part of my baggage - I would rather my kids not be exposed to what I think of as a harmful haskafa to their soul.

In my HS, we did have some PS kids and some non-religious kids, They seemed well adjusted.

eytse

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 12:26 pm

Additional reasons why I would at least be super, super tempted to choose a public school over a more RW one:

1. I don't want my daughters to absorb the messages about gender that they would be subject to in many schools. This is my NUMBER ONE reason.

2. I do not want my kids' curriculum censored to the extent that (in my understanding) it is in more RW schools. I believe in dinosaurs, sorry if that makes me a pariah on this forum.

3. It's not just content, but also pedagogy. I have taught, subbed, and observed in a variety of Jewish private schools, and in my (albeit limited) experience, more RW schools tend much more towards memorization, rote learning, and less towards critical thinking, problem-solving, andm frankly, creativity. This goes for secular and Judaic subjects.

4. My children would be total social misfits because we would not daven at the same shul, and kids wouldn't/couldn't come over because of different kashrut situations, etc.

Ruchel

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 12:49 pm

nylon wrote:

Yes to that. Also, public school is neutral. RW school pushes a specific hashkafa.

(I have heard that there are RW rabbonim who say that public college is better than YU for this reason.)

Yes Nylon, and I know of charedi rabbanim who prefer a public school to a very MO one or any type who disgusts kids (I'm sure this will be bashed but facts are facts). A name of one who is public about it: Rabbi Ron Chaya.

Nothing is fully neutral, and it depends on location, teacher... of course

nylon

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 1:04 pm

morah wrote:

nylon wrote:

Yes to that. Also, public school is neutral. RW school pushes a specific hashkafa.

(I have heard that there are RW rabbonim who say that public college is better than YU for this reason.)

I've taught public school- not as neutral as you think.

I was a student at one, K-12. No, it is not perfectly neutral. Nowhere is. But it is a system I know how to navigate. The distinctions are much clearer. Public school isn't pretending to teach Jewish values, and it accepts a certain amount of diversity. It's easier for me to handle that than a school that says their version of Judaism is correct and ours is wrong.

morah

Fri, Jun 22 2012, 1:15 pm

nylon wrote:

morah wrote:

nylon wrote:

Yes to that. Also, public school is neutral. RW school pushes a specific hashkafa.

(I have heard that there are RW rabbonim who say that public college is better than YU for this reason.)

I've taught public school- not as neutral as you think.

If you feel you can navigate it appropriately with your kids, that's fine and totally your call. But let's not call the public schools neutral. They push agendas too but no one likes to admit it because we like to think government entities are above that.