Love the Enneagram

youngishbear

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 7:20 pm

Also, I think you are mistaking qualities for type. Any type can have any quality. And it is confusing sometimes.

Take the five. Are all of them brilliant? No. But they are people who love learning. They probably are drawn to knowledge from an early age, often because they have natural intelligence that is nurtured, and that love shapes their personality and becomes a major motivation theoughout their lives.

Does that mean ones aren't smart or can't learn? Of course not. Any type can be brilliant. But ones are likely to be drawn to halacha. And their brilliance will be of a practical, not theoretical nature. Any type ca be intelligent and learned, but for fives knowledge is the love of their life and what they need to thrive.

I agree with you that personalities are not set in stone. Humans can and should grow and change, in the dorection they need to in order to achieve balance.

But I do think our underlying drives and goals remain pretty consistent throughout life.

return2You

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 7:21 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Dramatic changes, especially downward changes, are a red flag for a reason. Of course people grow and change. But if Miss Fun becomes Miss Serious without leaving some room in her life for the things that bring her pleasure, she will be miserable.

If you ask abuse survivors, they want their old selves back. And with therapy, they can heal and go back there.

Again, childhood experiences do shape our personality. And personality expressions are not set in stone. A type 4 can learn to be disciplined like a 1, but what brings them satisfaction and motivates them will always be the connection and emotional depth of their 4 core.

I think you're looking at this like a medical diagnosis, when it really isn't. For me it's a tool to understand why my sister who is a one should not be the person I kvetch to about my difficulty with my housekeeping routine because she cannot understand how hard it is for me. She can, however, be the perfect source for tips on housekeeping.

It helps me let go of unrealistic expectations of people. My 7 friend will never agree to come to a museum with me. And I will not bore my 3 friend with a discussion about the enneagram.

Unless they choose to develop that side of themselves, in which case I'd be thrilled to share the ride with them.

Sometimes they want their old selves, sometimes they don't. Sometimes, they can't, even with therapy.

Although my enneagram type fits me at the moment, I can place myself in at least three different ones at different points in my life.

My needs change. My " comfort foods" have changed. What used to bring me satisfaction no longer is important in My life. My motivations most certainly have changed. And they will continue to change as I expand above and beyond my current enneagram. At least I hope so. To achieve human perfection( as much as we possibly could) we need to try develop all nine types within ourselves.

The main reason I don't like it is when people limit themselves by saying" I'm a seven, so I can't be compatible with a one or two."

People are much more than that.

youngishbear

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 7:25 pm

return2You wrote:

The point isn't to limit yourself, but to accept the (current) limitations of others to meet your expectations.

And to be aware of the things that trip you up. If a five knows they get stuck in the planning and research phase and never get to do anything, the awareness of this tendency is a good thing. The enneagram is not the be all and end all, but as far as personality systems go, it is a fun one and much more flexible than most. With the wings, and integration and disintegration, you pretty much do have to pick up traits from all 9 on your journey through life.

return2You

Sun, Oct 25 2015, 7:26 pm

youngishbear wrote:

I think what you're saying is pretty limiting, I think people can change their core beings but I don't have the education, just my own experience to back up my claims, so I'll just bow out here.

Scrabble123

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 8:58 am

I believe that the enneagram is flawed, giving too much value to the "emotional" aspects of personality (which are not necessarily a reflection of one's core self and often can be a result of outside influences). That misunderstanding gives value to something that should be overlooked to find the truer inside. It also confuses individuals who are not sure about themselves into placing themselves into a "number" rather than possible fostering their true self which may indeed belong to a different number. I like the Myer-Briggs much more, but I really think that all of these tests are lacking, as individual's themselves are much more complex than a set core v. experiences and self determination. I also don't think that you need categories to learn to accept, validate and understand others. That should also be on a case by case basis, and throwing your friend into a "number" is really not healthy for any relationship IMO.

Scrabble123

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 9:02 am

youngishbear wrote:

I love how the bolded is so indicative of the ideal three as a motivator.

And of some irrational, emotional thinking. Let's deal with Sally as a three and not as Sally because that is certainly going to bring out her best qualifications and encourage her to work and exercise her potential. Also, before doing that let's just assume that I totally understand the ins and out of Sally so well because well, I'm sure that I understand the reasoning behind each and every one of her behaviors.

Amother, I do not know you personally and I cannot comment on you being irrational or emotional. For all I know, you just use it as a guide, and do in fact view Sally as an individual. I'm just trying to use an exaggerated example to personify a point without you involved.

youngishbear

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 9:25 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

I find the Myers-Briggs system confusing if you're balanced in some areas. I love people, but I also need space and solitude. I end up with E-I N T-F P. Too confusing.

The enneagram is just fun. It amuses me when people take it so seriously as to fight it or get highly insulted. I would never just smack a label on someone and walk away. I would always give them the chance to disprove it LOL

youngishbear

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 9:35 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

You're the one reducing a process to a negative oversimplified one.

The three motivator naturally looks at people to see how to bring out the best in them. Instead of thinking "my colleague has a knack for organization, clarity, precision, I think she would be ideal for this part of the project", amother thinks with the shortcut term "one".

For teachers, experts always advocate working with different modalities to target the "visual learners" "auditory learners," etc. It does not reduce a student to one dimension when you acknowledge her strength.

Unless you are in a position that requires/permits you to push people a bit beyond their comfort zone for their sake (like a parent or teacher), it is in everybody's best interest to work with other people's strength and steer clear of hangups and difficulties. This is one way to make sense out of a very complex subject. And it's not 100%. I have found many inconsistencies and lots of nonsense based on it.

Scrabble123

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 10:01 am

youngishbear wrote:

You've misunderstood and misconstrued what I was notating:
1. I was not talking about "threes" or any other number, just the concept of what you bolded from amother's comment
2. I specifically stated that I used an exaggerated example to make a point (which you and possibly others did not pick up on so it obviously needs further explanation)
3. I support interacting differently with each individual
4. The enneagram is really not considered interesting in professional environments. It's seriously flawed from an academic perspective.

Experts advocating addressing "visual learners" "auditory learners" etc. is not the same as some random individual simply reading the enneagram and naively deciding that she now has the capability to understand, address, validate, and interact with herself and others in the "best manner."

It's common sense to deal with every individual according to his or her character traits, and pointing out that the enneagram allows you to better do that is the flaw I was referring to because it assumes that: 1. the enneagram is the ultimate truth, 2. that the individual complete understands the enneagram (has studied it in depth, academically, rigorously), and 3. is able to apply it to an individual successfully without knowing or recognizing her core.

Common sense and experience will dictate to an individual that not everyone is the same, that some are more visual, some are more auditory, some are more emotional, some are more security-based, etc. etc. etc. and even if the enneagram has allowed someone to come to that realization because for some reason that had not yet deduced that themselves, it should still not be the road book for how to now deal with that individual (that should come based upon your experience and later academic assessment of the emotional/social/psychological/academic/work experiences with that individual). If it's a catalyst for some people, that's great, but using it as a road book is inappropriate, especially when you consider its flaws and the lack of actual rigorous interpretation in an academic environment.

youngishbear

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 11:40 am

And all I said was that you and others are taking something fun way too seriously. Heaven help us if the enneagram was used as a diagnostic tool (for all the reasons you mentioned, and more.)

You seem to think that I and others go around labeling people for some very important purposes. And that we then view that person as his label instead of as an individual. I don't. I love this system because it's fun and not as rigid as others like it.

Of course it's imperfect. Of course it's stupid to take this too seriously. Of course it's stupid to think a personality system like this can serve any academic or clinical purpose.

But it offers some insight. And if it sparks further interest in understanding others, or oneself, or other types of more serious study, I maintain that it is fun and harmless, even useful.

(Even this discussion is fun. I hope for you too.

Scrabble123

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 11:49 am

youngishbear wrote:

If I said that the game Up Words was flawed would that be taking the game too seriously? Unfortunately many people use systems like the enneagram to mistreat others, although such individuals would probably do that regardless (and find something else to support that mistreatment). I don't think it is, "being too serious," to simply say that I find the enneagram flawed, and I do not think that I ever claimed that you personally label individuals inaccurately (I know neither you nor amother and was not even commenting on her, but rather a concept that some individuals employ). Recognizing or discussing flaws is not naming something useless, it is just recognizing limitations so that when understanding something you can be aware of them. If you want to move to Spain it would be important to point out that studying Latin American Spanish will leave you with some holes (lack of vosotros, etc. etc.) and in no way takes away from Latin American Spanish in and of itself for its intended purpose. Also, studying Latin American Spanish does not mean that you are suddenly an expert in translating Latin texts (hmm.. different language????). And, no. This discussion is not fun. It's a conversation, makes my waiting on hold go a bit quicker, but certainly cannot be called "fun," although I'm glad you are having fun and enjoying yourself.

return2You

Mon, Oct 26 2015, 12:24 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Exactly! I couldnt have said it better!!

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Oct 27 2015, 3:33 am

So I'm the amother who's a three who posted earlier. might come out a different color because posting from my computer not my phone.
I don't see what about the Enneagram is so focused on the emotions. I think it focuses on what motivates people. The emotional triad is very focused on emotions but there is a lot more to the picture for the other triads.
I also see it as a tool to help with personal growth and understanding motivations. So I use it to get through to people in a way that they can understand. for example, I will appeal to a six's love of teams and rules when asking them to implement a new standard. I will ask them to be in charge of making sure it is implemented across the board. they will take this very seriously and care very much that the standard is upheld, more than a seven or a three for example. If a three is slacking off at work, you can understand that it is probably due to unrealistic expectations of themselves and the subsequent disappointment in themselves, so you can try to refine their workload so they can focus properly. Sometimes a five will need an extra push to just finish the job already and stop perfecting it. so workplace and parenting things like this can be very much helped by the enneagram.
Of course everyone is beyond just their number. I believe the personality is a mixture of background, life experience, and their core personality. the more integrated a person is, the more of the other numbers they have, because they are more balanced.
this might offend people, and maybe I'm just too shallow as a three Smile

but: I really don't believe people are soooooo unique. the combination of your personality plus your exact circumstances is what makes you unique, but people as a whole can and do share personality traits, core beliefs and motivators, and also the entire way they do things. for example, I know a few unhealthy twos. one is much more neurotic than the next, but if you peel away the layers, it all boils down to their fear of rejection and need for control, regardless of what happened to them in life.