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Forum -> Working Women
Frum women not to have careers?
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 12:33 pm
I don't have all the details, but come on - there isn't enough problem paying tuition and for our basic necessities? M
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avigayil




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 12:38 pm
Are you talking about the rabbinical council in Eretz Yisrael prohibiting advanced education/degrees (beyong seminary I believe) ?
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tzipp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 12:47 pm
On the other hand,

Don't you think it would be nice not to have to work? Smile
A lot is being expected from frum women! shock

But it is still less stressfull to work than to not be able to pay the bills...
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Flowerchild




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 12:58 pm
Quote:
Don't you think it would be nice not to have to work




of course, noone wants to work, spend their days under stress come home exhausted. but if the rabbis pass a law that frum women are not allowed to further their education, dont you think there is a possability that it will go further that women do not need education at all? we did not come this far to go backwords, I think this limits womens abilities and brains, it kind of lowers us to a place in the kitchen. I enjoy my freedom of education, I like using my brain for more then diaper changing, and dont get me wrong I love my family, I love being a mother and a wife but I also enjoy being a human being with freedom to use my brain where I chose and working is something I enjoy and I see nothing wrong with it. also if you live in america it is pretty hard to live on one salary, I mean there are gazillion expenses.
but anyway, rabbis know what they are doing, lets hope.
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yoyosma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 1:11 pm
I think the key concept here is choice.
Once the choice of working or not is taken away is when we run into problems.
A SAHM is a very worthy job, but a woman should never be forced into it, she should choose it. I am a SAHM myself, currently this is my choice.
Thank G-d I am able to do it right now, although I will probably have to go outside the home once my baby reaches a year and is nursing less.
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faigie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 1:14 pm
OK one simple question here
if the guys are learning, and the women dont have careers.........
WHO is gonna earn a living to pay the bills?
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Coke Slurpee




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 1:18 pm
I don't have what it takes to be a SAHM, I need to work. If I was home all day watching the kids, I would go crazy. One of teh reasons I work is so I can come home and be a better mother to my kids.
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chaimsmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 1:32 pm
I think everyone, men and women, should be capable of supporting themselves. Whether or not a woman chooses to work outside the home, she should be able to do so if necessary. A year ago my husband was diagnosed with a highly fatal form of cancer. B'H he is doing better than most patients in his situation, but he has not been able to work in 9 months. B'H I have a good job with excellent benefits, including terrific health insurance, because I am the sole provider for my family right now.
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 1:34 pm
chaimsmom wrote:
I think everyone, men and women, should be capable of supporting themselves. Whether or not a woman chooses to work outside the home, she should be able to do so if necessary. A year ago my husband was diagnosed with a highly fatal form of cancer. B'H he is doing better than most patients in his situation, but he has not been able to work in 9 months. B'H I have a good job with excellent benefits, including terrific health insurance, because I am the sole provider for my family right now.


That's a very good point. I think it is important for all women to have some sort of qualification to fall back on, even if they plan on never using it.
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Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 1:52 pm
My kids enjoy watching me struggle through mounds of homework and cooking LOL!
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yoyosma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:08 pm
I had a whole post written about my friends in EY who are Kollel wives and barely make it.
Then I realized that these women run Gans, or tutor.
That is a whole other group.
The women who have college degrees to support their husbands, this is the group that will suffer.
However, I am wondering if this will maybe force husbands to look for jobs, or will it push people deeper into poverty? Do people really listen to these Psak's that come down? It seems every day there is another Psak from a Rav in EY.
I think of some of these poor women who get degrees, have kids, have to leave the kids to go back to work so their husbands can sit and learn, maybe this will give some women the rest they need. I dont even know what to say on this topic, so I will stop right here.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:12 pm
Quote:
Are you talking about the rabbinical council in Eretz Yisrael prohibiting advanced education/degrees (beyong seminary I believe) ?


Seriously? Was this thought through? So in a case where a woman wants to or has to work to support her family she will have to resign herself to work in minimum wage jobs because she is not qualified for higher paying jobs? Is this supposed to enhance her fumkeit and help her family?
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:14 pm
Some women DO the social interaction of working.
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:14 pm
yoyosma wrote:
I had a whole post written about my friends in EY who are Kollel wives and barely make it.
Then I realized that these women run Gans, or tutor.
That is a whole other group.
The women who have college degrees to support their husbands, this is the group that will suffer.
However, I am wondering if this will maybe force husbands to look for jobs, or will it push people deeper into poverty? Do people really listen to these Psak's that come down? It seems every day there is another Psak from a Rav in EY.
I think of some of these poor women who get degrees, have kids, have to leave the kids to go back to work so their husbands can sit and learn, maybe this will give some women the rest they need. I dont even know what to say on this topic, so I will stop right here.


I don't think this will make it easier on women. I think it will make it harder.
The Rabbanim didn't say that women shouldn't go to work because all husbands in kollel should get up and get a job. So women should just get up earlier and work later and push themselves to do menial jobs for minimum wage, because all they have to offer is a high school diploma.
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yoyosma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:18 pm
only1, well then they are looking at the lives some of my friends lead. I went to Beis Yaakov, the Kollel lifestyle was really pushed and a bunch of my classmates went for it.
They started off really happy, I am sure some still are. But they work SO HARD!! One of my friends lives in a 1 bedroom with 4 children. She runs a Gan but since there are so many she doesnt get a good wage. Her husband learns all day. Her parents dont help them because they arent wealthy. She is 28 years old and she looks 45. My heart goes out to her. She actually doesnt complain, but when shes been home for Pesach (not often!!!!) she looks sooo tired.
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:22 pm
yoyosma wrote:
only1, well then they are looking at the lives some of my friends lead. I went to Beis Yaakov, the Kollel lifestyle was really pushed and a bunch of my classmates went for it.
They started off really happy, I am sure some still are. But they work SO HARD!! One of my friends lives in a 1 bedroom with 4 children. She runs a Gan but since there are so many she doesnt get a good wage. Her husband learns all day. Her parents dont help them because they arent wealthy. She is 28 years old and she looks 45. My heart goes out to her. She actually doesnt complain, but when shes been home for Pesach (not often!!!!) she looks sooo tired.


That life definitely doesn't sound easier then if
a) the husband got a job
or
b) she got some sort of qualification so she could get paid more for working less hours.

(Plus - there are only so many gans that are needed in the world.)
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Coke Slurpee




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:26 pm
Can someone confirm this psak. Maybe post a copy of it. Wording is very important when trying to agree or disagree with a psak. What really was the psak and who signed their name to it?

Has anyone hear seen it or are we putting down what these rabbanim said without actually knowing what was said.
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DefyGravity




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:30 pm
Quote:
Rabbinical panel bars ultra-Orthodox women from continuing education programs
By Yair Ettinger and Tamar Rotem

A committee of rabbis formulating the education policy in the ultra-Orthodox community has prohibited women's continuing education programs and severely restricted other study courses, thus blocking the advancement and development of haredi women's careers.

This is a devastating economic and professional blow to thousands of women teachers, who are the primary breadwinners in the ultra-Orthodox community. It is also a drastic regression in haredi women's ongoing process of moving ahead in their studies and career and in improving their economic situation.

The repercussions on the teachers and the ultra-Orthodox education system are tantamount to an earthquake, as the haredi newspaper Yated Neeman called it. The issues at the heart of the ultra-Orthodox society are at stake - the limits of education, the norm requiring women to be the breadwinners while their husbands study and, above all, the authority of the rabbis and functionaries to foist restrictions on the increasingly frustrated public.

"The collective and humiliating announcement about closing down the courses and shrinking them struck me like a thunderbolt," a 46-year-old teacher wrote to the rabbi committee anonymously.

"You don't allow the yeshiva students to work for a living, every new initiative is immediately cut down ... everyone says the women must be the breadwinners, fine ... but let me make a decent living for my family," she wrote in a letter evoking responses on a haredi Web site.

Since the beginning of the year, all the teaching instructors and women in continuing education programs stayed home, waiting for the decision of the rabbi education panel, which only came in December. The decision banned women's studies for academic degrees and imposed severe restrictions on other women's studies.

For years, haredi women high-school graduates have continued their studies in teachers' seminaries. In two years, they receive a certificate enabling them to teach in the haredi schools. Then they continue to study for a third year for a degree equivalent to B.A. and take continuing education programs specializing in certain subjects. This enables them to obtain higher teaching positions and, in turn, receive higher wages.

The new directives completely cancel the programs equivalent to B.A. studies, as well as the programs for education consultants and didactic diagnosticians, who trace learning impairments. Graduates of teacher seminaries will be able to apply for teaching certificates only after a hiatus of at least one year - to enable them to get married.

The education revolution in the ultra-Orthodox community has gathered enormous momentum in the past decade. Academic institutions and centers for professional training have opened in many fields, for both men and women. At first, the revolution was approved by the rabbis, headed by haredi leader Rabbi Yehuda Leib Steinman. But Steinman revoked his approval when the conservative groups expressed outrage at this development.

In recent years, the reforms in the continuing education programs have not pleased the rabbis, who object to women's "academic" studies. The conservatives warned of women's "career ambitions," fearing they would now be able to break out of the "teaching ghetto" and find other jobs than teaching. Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv was quoted in Yated Neeman objecting to teachers' enrolling in "all kinds of other education programs without any supervision of rabbis on every detail".

He warned that without close supervision and determining the content, "all manner of heresy can creep into those programs."

The rabbis were mostly infuriated by the psychological subjects in the teaching programs. Freud and Western psychology had always been a red rag to them.

The absence of ultra-Orthodox lecturers with academic degrees in diagnostics and consulting required bringing in lecturers from "outside" the community. Yated Neeman's women's supplement, Bayit Neeman, blasted the trend of bringing in lecturers from the "Sephardi faction" and even "completely secular" ones, warning of the women students' defilement.

Haredi spokesmen say that what has outraged the rabbis were the new demands by the Education Ministry, which included expanding the studies and requiring lecturers with a second degree for some of the programs.

The new decrees issued by the rabbis are most injurious to women teachers and seminar students, who have spent years studying and have invested thousands of shekels to obtain the equivalent of a B.A. Those who have graduated already have not only wasted their efforts, they may even be harmed by their education. Elyashiv has ordered not to give them priority in high school positions, where there is already a surplus of teachers. The decrees have also put several lecturers in the training centers out of a job.
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Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:33 pm
But that's not the psak that's an article from a paper that is not always frum friendly from what I have heard.
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mimsy7420




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jan 04 2007, 2:33 pm
So sad.
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