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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 19 2012, 12:09 pm
5*Mom wrote:
Wow, thanks for that.

Here's the part that really caught my attention:

Quote:
Here is the basic reality that I actually think many people could use a lesson in: relations is about more than just visual attraction and lust and it is about more than just passion and infatuation. I won’t get into the boring details of the research here, but basically when relations is done right, at its deepest level it is about intimacy. It is about one human being connecting with another human being they love. It is a beautiful physical manifestation of two people being connected in a truly vulnerable, intimate manner because they love each other profoundly. It is bodies connecting and souls connecting. It is beautiful and rich and fulfilling and spiritual and amazing. Many people never get to this point in their relations lives because it requires incredible communication, trust, vulnerability, and connection. And Lolly and I have had that from day one, mostly because we weren’t distracted by the powerful chemicals of infatuation and obsession that usually bring a couple together (which dwindle dramatically after the first few years of marriage anyway). So, in a weird way, the circumstances of our marriage allowed us to build a s-xual relationship that is based on everything partners should want in their relations-life: intimacy, communication, genuine love and affection.


This man has more accurately described the Torah perspective on s*x and marriage than most imamothers. Ya think he gives chosson/kalla classes?


Yes but.
It IS about passion. Not infatuation but passion born out of profound connection and the thrill not just of the present but the shared past and future. And yes, attraction does play a role in it.
Just think of mikvah night in a healthy marriage (and the next two weeks too).
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 19 2012, 12:23 pm
When he describes his wife and his marriage, I hear passion.
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bamamama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 19 2012, 12:27 pm
His blog post was beautiful.

however, I just don't understand why we are seeing posts by amother. I just don't get why people have to hide when expressing an opinion. Hiding a friend's personal details - ok. For the amothers who don't have a good reason for it, it's much easier to follow discussions here when we can associate posts with usernames. /psa
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 19 2012, 12:28 pm
Isn't someone that insists he is gay but married really bis*xual?
As much as he denies that, it is impossible for a REAL homos*xual to be married and stay attracted to a woman. There are so many religious men out there that have homos*xual feelings but are still married, and some women that would love to have a relationship with another woman but choose to get married and have children because they want to be mothers too. Yet many homos*exual men I know have divorced their wives because they felt that they were not giving it their all, and today live with other men.
You can check out craigs list frum personals and see how many posters there are... seeking other men or seeking threesomes. What is the point of this whole thing? Believing, acting, and being religious?
My feeling is that most people can feel same relations attraction at some point in their lives. The question is, do they act upon those feelings?
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bamamama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 19 2012, 7:45 pm
amother wrote:
Isn't someone that insists he is gay but married really bis*xual?
As much as he denies that, it is impossible for a REAL homos*xual to be married and stay attracted to a woman. There are so many religious men out there that have homos*xual feelings but are still married, and some women that would love to have a relationship with another woman but choose to get married and have children because they want to be mothers too. Yet many homos*exual men I know have divorced their wives because they felt that they were not giving it their all, and today live with other men.
You can check out craigs list frum personals and see how many posters there are... seeking other men or seeking threesomes. What is the point of this whole thing? Believing, acting, and being religious?
My feeling is that most people can feel same relations attraction at some point in their lives. The question is, do they act upon those feelings?


See? Why are you amother for this? It makes no sense.

As for your post, who are YOU to say if he's a "real" homos.exual or not? Isn't that something he would know best about? I'm going to guess that you didn't read the whole post/article because he goes into this in detail.
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Happy18




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 19 2012, 7:55 pm
bamamama wrote:
His blog post was beautiful.

however, I just don't understand why we are seeing posts by amother. I just don't get why people have to hide when expressing an opinion. Hiding a friend's personal details - ok. For the amothers who don't have a good reason for it, it's much easier to follow discussions here when we can associate posts with usernames. /psa


I agree, when too many posters are posting as amother it gets very confusing.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 4:59 am
5*Mom wrote:
When he describes his wife and his marriage, I hear passion.


Yes, but IIRC he specifically mentions something about relations without passion. Maybe theoretically. And yes, sometimes people are tired* Wink but going into a marriage like that can be sad. (I said can be, sometimes it's still a bracha for everyone involved if they're on the same page.)

*BTW, this is one reason to go amother. I think my kids pop in from time to time, and that they know my sn, in which case right now... yes, I think I can hear it... there is a chorus of "la la la, I can't HEAR you". I don't comment too much on such personal matters but I could see times when I'd have an easier time going amother.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 9:23 am
Great Article. I think this not only explains homosexuality but even explains men. What the difference between intimacy and lust is. It can really help marriages.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 9:49 am
amother wrote:
Great Article. I think this not only explains homosexuality but even explains men. What the difference between intimacy and lust is. It can really help marriages.


Lust isn't always bad, you know.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 9:58 am
PinkFridge wrote:
amother wrote:
Great Article. I think this not only explains homosexuality but even explains men. What the difference between intimacy and lust is. It can really help marriages.


Lust isn't always bad, you know.


Lust alone is.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 10:31 am
Sadly, I've found very few people on imamother who are willing to strip themselves of their cultural ideas about s-xuality in general, let alone homos-xuality.

I thought there were two key points in the author's essay that are especially important:

1. Every lifestyle choice we make involves opportunity cost. This is not simply an issue regarding s-xual preferences -- it encompasses every decision we make. By choosing to live as frum Jews, for example, we are depriving ourselves of lobster and shrimp. At a different level, many of us have deprived ourselves of certain career paths or hobbies because of our observance of the Sabbath. Yet we have reached the conclusion that the benefits of living as Torah Jews outweigh the possible losses.

2. There is no such thing as an "authentic" lifestyle. A gay individual married to an opposite-gender spouse shouldn't be presumed to be less authentic than a frum Jew who really loves lobster. In fact, it is insulting and infantalizing to assume that adults are unable to properly evaluate what is most important in their lives and behave accordingly.

I've made this point on previous threads, but it usually gets swallowed up: I know very few frum people, including myself, who are genuinely knowledgeable about the current research, thought, and writing going on in the world of LGBT/queer studies. However, I read enough to know that many imamothers would be pretty shocked by how much it diverges from the views expressed by rank-and-file gay activists and educators.

Among other topics, serious scholars in these fields frequently feel that the role of same-s-x attraction is unduly influenced by the socio-economic goal of creating a "culture" or "community." In practical terms, you can expect to find plenty of LGBT studies scholars who are rabidly opposed to gay marriage or even monogamy, for example.

However, being the radical that I am, I'm willing to go a step further than Inspired; rather than simply promote love of fellow Jews; familiarity with the actual halachos; and decrying hard-core or soft-core bullying, I would urge imamothers to go even further:

We need to re-frame how we think about love and marriage.

Now, I agree this is tough for anyone brought up in the Western world. The paradigm of the one true soul mate who excites our passion and whose very presence warms us . . . well, that's pretty heady stuff. Even though we all extol the idea of a Torah-based marriage, we are never lacking threads about how our marriages are failing in some way to live up to the HEA ending we feel we were promised.

I would argue that the current discussion of gay relationships prompted by challenges to marriage laws is a wonderful opportunity for us to examine -- and reject -- the paradigm fed to us by so many romantic comedy movies and romance novels. Mr. Weed is arguing that life is more complex than simply "gay" or "straight." Ultimately, that's a message that everyone needs to heed.
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Inspired




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 11:05 am
Great post Fox!
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Happy18




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 11:07 am
Fox your post was excellent!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 11:55 am
Fox, I think this was fascinating. I also think that we have to remember that intimacy shouldn't be downplayed. I recently heard a well-known kallah teacher on this subject. Life isn't like the movies - they don't show the laundry, the cleaning, the 2 AM feedings, the 3 AM changing the bed of another child and cleaning up another one's vomit and on and on. And also, there is life beyond brazilians, we're not all going to be supermodels,and all that.(She didn't say all that, I did.) But even if daily life is drudgery we can and should have a healthy and physically profound relationship too.

Let me try it this way - we always talk about how real life isn't like the movies, or even the shidduch dating period. Quotidian is a good word. But the physical part (the physically spiritual part?) of life should be getting better and better, even if as life goes on patterns may change, etc. there should be moments, and frequent moments, of passion and desire. (Again, this is why I kind of wish I would have gone amother...) It really helps build profound connection. I'm not sure if we're chicken and egging here, though I guess we do believe that the spiritual connection and attraction is what the physical is built on. But after that point, there is a healthy cycle.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 12:25 pm
Wow! Inspired this blog really got me excited! I am amother for obvious reasons, as you'll soon read. My husband struggles with same s-e-x attraction, and has a network of many men who do as well. All of the pro-gay propaganda really bothered me and prevents us from ever sharing our experiences because I feel people are fed only their side of the story, which is not completely whole. I have been to workshops, as has my husband regarding these problems with other Jewish, Christian and Mormon couples. Another man who is revolutionizing for men with SSA who want to be in a heterosexual relationship is Dave Matheson. Look him on youtube. He is actually coming out with a book, "Becoming a Whole Man" is what I think it's called. His wife Peggy does a beautiful workshop for wives of SSA husbands. It's not an ideal situation to be in, but there are those of us out there that struggle with this.

The Christians and Mormons have organizations helping people struggling with SSA who want to marry the opposite relations and be in heterosexual relationships. Unfortunately, many times Jews are the last religious sect to admit they have this problem as well (think abuse, addictions...). I dream of the day when this too will be spoken about freely in the Jewish world and there will be more acceptance that SSA people CAN live a torah-true life and derive pleasure from a marriage. Until then there is JONAH to help. It is endorsed by many rabbanim.
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Inspired




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 12:35 pm
Amother, ((hugs)) glad you got to read that then. Much hatzlacha to you and your dh.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 2:10 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Let me try it this way - we always talk about how real life isn't like the movies, or even the shidduch dating period. Quotidian is a good word. But the physical part (the physically spiritual part?) of life should be getting better and better, even if as life goes on patterns may change, etc. there should be moments, and frequent moments, of passion and desire.


See, here's where I think we've all been culturally conditioned by those movies we constantly contrast with real life:

We happen to live in a culture and era in which regular s-xual activity and near-complete s-xual fulfillment are considered necessary for health and happiness. This is an interesting theory, but it's as much the work of Hugh Hefner as anyone else.

The truth is that there are many people who subjugate s-xual fulfillment to a lesser role in their lives for all kinds of reasons: some religions encourage celibacy; some people feel their athletic or artistic performances suffer from regular s-xual activity; some people simply have low libido and don't find it problematic in their lives; some people prefer to dedicate their energy to their work.

The Torah tells us that we are not allowed to marry someone we find repulsive. But there's a lot of room between "repulsive" and "passion."

The willingness of an individual to subjugate part of his/her life to a greater goal depends on the individual as well as the demands of the goal. To Mr. Weed, living as a devout Mormon/Christian is worth the sacrifice of s-xual fulfillment. To many business owners I know, the goal of creating a successful company is worth the sacrifice of family or free time. To virtually anyone in the entertainment field, reaching a particular level of success is worth the sacrifice of grueling workouts and near-starvation diets.

But the individual dynamics of sacrifice are simply too complex to be rubber-stamped. How many of us have been asked by a non-religious person at one time or another, "How could you waste your potential on diapers and runny noses? Imagine how much further you could have gone in your career?!" or "Do you really think G-d cares if you eat something without a hechsher?"

S-xual fulfillment does not exist on a separate plane from work fulfillment; eating; desire to reproduce; or any other human need or desire. It is only in the last half-century that it has been granted near-sacrosanct status.
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faigie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 3:14 pm
A person is gay? fine. But please, let them work out their issues before they go and marry a woman.
The guy in the article was up front about it. I doubt though that many gay men who marry in our comminity are.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 5:21 pm
faigie wrote:
A person is gay? fine. But please, let them work out their issues before they go and marry a woman.
The guy in the article was up front about it. I doubt though that many gay men who marry in our comminity are.


That's right! Many men are not upfront because either they're in denial or because of the stigma attached due to ignorance. Or because when they tell a rabbi about their problem (not every rabbi), he tells them to go get married and it will solve their problem. But their are those men that are open about it before marriage and they are able able to have a loving, satisfying, fulfilling marriage where each spouse works hard to make it happen. If only there were more readily available resources and therapists in the Jewish world for people struggling with homosexuality...

Amother because I'm the one who posted that my husband struggles with this.
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Yael




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2012, 5:53 pm
I have split the OT posts into a seperate theead called value of life in issues of concern to frum society.
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