On homosexuality | Imamother

amother

Wed, Aug 22 2012, 1:19 pm

ReallyRosie wrote:

Quote:

The first article you posted, which is the only one I had time to read, was written over 2 years ago and I suppose he has grown and realized he can't turn someone homosexual into heterosexual just like that. The Arthur Goldberg that I know is committed to helping men with SSA live a life that they want to, by marrying and having a family. Alan Downing is not the only life coach at JONAH and he denied the allegations made by the 2 fellows, with a clear agenda, in the youtube clip. I have never heard such disturbing things from others that have seen him, including my husband. Reparative therapy is controversial and there is no conclusive proof that it works or doesn't. It's not for everyone, as is any therapy.

That's the most disturbing thing about JONAH.

Regardless of insticts, preferences, etc. people are not animals and are free to make rational decisions, a step above their drives. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with seeking support. For example, if I feel emotionally that I NEED salty food, despite high blood pressure, I may seek assistance to help me deal with the cravings. Perfectly understandable.

But that's not what JONAH's about - helping people control their impulses. JONAH is about shaming gay people into thinking they have a disease, cutely termed "SSA" (which I guess is supposed to sound like "OCD" or "ADD"). Homosexuality is not a mental illness, and there is no such thing as "reparative therapy" or "conversion therapy" as a legitimately recognized form of counseling. It's not controversial, it's just false.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/......html

Amother, I wish you and your husband strength in this time, and that things work out for the best for you. I really hope that JONAH doesn't do too much damage in the meantime. I really really believe you should be consulting your Rav here, and not a two-bit con artist.

Firstly, my DH did consult more than one rav about his issues before he was married. Highly respected rabbanim. And do you know what they told him? You'll get better after you get married so you can channel your taivos to the right place. They just weren't educated about the issue very much. And there are many of them out there telling this to men. Secondly, JONAH is endorsed by a number of rabbanim, among them Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky. Thirdly, the APA is not the be-all and end-all. They do not always take faith and religion into consideration, and there is not enough research done about whether someone can be "cured" of their SSA. Fourthly, SSA is not a cutesy name coined by JONAH. It is used in many circles and in other faiths as well.

Here are some websites who have a different belief, so you can read up and educate yourself further.

http://www.peoplecanchange.com/
http://www.reclamationrc.org/h.....e.htm
http://pathinfo.org/change.htm
http://www.genderwholeness.com/about.html

Quote:

Well, Fox, sure, a husband can't be all those things.

But he ought to be some of them.

Or at least one of them.

Lover.

Which he probably won't be if he's, you know, not at all attracted to women.

You think a marriage without zex can be a good one? You think grown-ups can be happy going their entire earthly lives without zex?

Where did you get that there is no zex? Josh Weed has a fulfilling intimate life with his wife and so do I with my husband.

dancingqueen

Wed, Aug 22 2012, 8:08 pm

[quote="amother"]

ReallyRosie wrote:

I've included some links below, that show Arthur Goldberg's criminal past (and his true objectives with his JONAH organization):

I personally know women who were told about their husband's SSA before they got engaged and they opted for it anyway. Other women weren't told about it before, and it surfaced after they were married. Either because the man was in denial or because he thought he was "cured". There should be help for families like this, the only option shouldn't be to break up their families.

ooshes, how much experience do you have with this situation to see whether it works for most people or not? Are you a mental health professional who deals with this on an ongoing basis? Unless you are, your opinion is not coming from a place of knowledge. People who have mentioned marriages ending because of the husband seeking a man, well do you know that many marriages have ended because of the husband seeking another woman too? If a person is dedicated to a marriage and fidelity, whether they are attracted to men or women, they will make their marriage work. If not, then yeah, the marriage will end whether they are attracted to men or women.

As I said in another post, if this situation works for people then I am happy for them. I just don't think it's ideal. Sure, a man can leave his wife for another woman, but we are talking about a situation where the wife doesnt have the right equipment from the very start. I do think a foundation of strong attraction is important to at least start with - I believe that s-x is the glue that hold a a marriage together. And tell me honestly - would you want your daughter to marry someone gay? (Even if they have never acted on it)

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2012, 10:21 am

[quote="ooshes"]

amother wrote:

ReallyRosie wrote:

So tell me, how many people actually have an ideal situation in marriage? Most people have emotional or physiological problems in some form or another. In the extreme spectrum, there are people with addictions, who are abusive, have any form of mental illness, are infertile, handicapped, poor... In the lesser extreme there are people who are insecure, selfish, have social problems, superiority or inferiority complexes, ADHD, have erectile dysfunction... The list goes on and on. You believe that s-x is the glue that holds a marriage together. I believe that it's a combination of emotional bonding, intimacy, and emotional maturity, together with s-x that is the glue to hold a marriage. My case in point: does a s-x addict have a great marriage because he wants to have s-x all day long? No! Because he doesn't have the emotional presence to control himself, which presents itself as being selfish. Are you going to tell me that he was also born that way, he NEEDS to fulfill his genetic tendencies to watch [filth] for a few hours everyday, go to strip clubs and m*sturbate?

And let me be honest, I don't want my daughter to marry someone gay. I don't want her to marry anyone with any sort of emotional, material, physical, psychological, mental, cognitive or social problems of any sort, because she is my daughter, a most precious being in this world. But I know that's not going to happen, no such person exists. She will have to compromise somewhere, and I don't know where it's going to be. Some of the compromises she will have to make will be apparent before she gets married. I hope she will have to emotional maturity to understand that just as she is not perfect, she will not marry someone perfect. Some imperfections of her spouse will not surface until after she gets married. And that applies to every single person. I'm not going to debate whether it's better for someone to marry an abusive person, or an addict, or someone with depression, or someone with SSA, etc. But most people have some problem or other and many deal with mental health issues, whether it comes before they get married or after, so having attractions to the same gender is just another such problem.

I have a terrific marriage with my DH and I know that many people would give the world to have what we do. Is it always easy? Heck no. But my DH is a growth oriented person, who is truth seeking, honest, mature, intelligent and responsible. His SSA is by far not what defines him or our marriage. And I can honestly tell you, with all my heart, that if my DD married a clone of my DH, with all his problems, I would bless her marriage.

Fox

Thu, Aug 23 2012, 11:31 am

ooshes wrote:

but we are talking about a situation where the wife doesnt have the right equipment from the very start.

Again, you are assuming that SSA is an all-or-nothing proposition. For a small minority of people, that may be true -- but it is a very small minority.

amother wrote:

Beautifully and perfectly said!

amother wrote:

Amother with the SSA husband, I can really relate to you and to the blog author, not because my husband is gay but because I gained over 100 lbs after I got married due to various factors and my husband is not attracted to obese women. Yet we somehow have a fabulous marriage and a great s x life, because he loves me and I love him and our marriage is about so much more than my body. He sounds a lot like your husband actually- a good, devoted guy who gets what is important in life. 1Just from hearing other people's opinions on fat women I know many people would find it hard to believe that my life can be so good without this basic attraction, but I feel like we are beyond that and we still enjoy each other very, very much and truly "make love"

it's not perfect but I don't know too many people who have perfect marriage. You and your dh sound like amazing people who are living the Torah's ideal of marriage and I wish you many happy years together.

Also beautifully said!

dancingqueen

Thu, Aug 23 2012, 12:33 pm

[quote="amother"]

ooshes wrote:

amother wrote:

ReallyRosie wrote:

Very interesting, thank you for sharing. it is definitely interesting to hear how it works out for you. I know several gay men, and my understanding is that most gay men are much closer to the gay than bi end of the spectrum. It would personally bother me to know that I fundamentally couldnt fulfill my husbands desires (unless the women here who are saying their husbands have "SSA", their husbands are also attracted to women - that would be a different story).

Of course no marriage is ideal (you are talking to someone who has been divorced, and in the first marriage s-xual issues were part of the problem), but this is an area that I would think would be asking for trouble, as some of the other serious issues you mentioned above were as well.

However, it sounds like it really works out for you, which is great!

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2012, 1:32 pm

Amother here with SSA husband (I'm the one that keeps responding to you). My DH did not tell me about his SSA before we got married because it was something he had been dealing with a lot as a teenager and thought he was over it. He went to rabbanim and therapy and he was at a really good place when we got married. That changed after marriage because being in so many situations triggered his feelings again and he told me about it about 3 years into our marriage, when we had 2 kids already. I was devastated at first because all I knew about it was what gay propaganda promotes: that you can't also have an attraction to the opposite s-x, that you're born with this, it's hereditary, you can't change, etc. It took me about a year or research and therapy to come to terms with it and it still scares me here and there, but I'm secure in our loving marriage.

I know a spectrum of women who are married to SSA guys. On found out when she was married for 10 years, and her husband had cheated on her with countless men. She stayed in the marriage and although her husband is "sober", they don't deal with their issues and choose an escape mechanism for their relationship. On the outside they have perfect lives, with gorgeous kids, they are prominent members of their community and they are wealthy. This guy's wife does not let him participate in any events for SSA men and lives in denial about it. Needless to say, their intimate life is not good. Another girl I know is married for just one year. Her husband did a lot of work before he got married and he was open with her about this when they were dating. They seem to have a beautiful marriage, and they are dealing with issues from this but nothing that would threaten their marriage. When I met her, I told her how much I admired her for going into this while knowing. She told me that she had a strong relationship with her husband when they were dating, and a strong emotional connection, and she was committed to working through his issues with him. She is a growth oriented individual and she admits she was naive about what was involved, but she loves her husband and would never have it any other way. I know a few more men who got married without telling their wives because they felt their issues were resolved and there was no need to. I don't know if their wives know at this point or not and what their marriages are like.

I hope all of this is helpful.

ReallyRosie

Thu, Aug 23 2012, 11:08 pm

Quote:

From "amother":

Sorry, here's the link: http://www.jonahweb.org/sectio.....d=322

Thank you, I read the letter. I admire and respect this Rav's teachings very much - but he is simply wrong here. Wrong where he implies that homosexuality is a neurological problem, he wasn't a neurologist. You're right that "SSA" is a faith term (or at least a term that certain faith communities use), it's not a medical term. The medical community has no right to legislate religion, but the religious communities also have absolutely no right to dispense medical advice and use labels that imply medical conditions.

I think all of us wives, especially the longer we are married, realize how complex marriage relationships are, and how each one has its own issues that need to be worked on and addressed, and how despite that (with the help of G-d) we manage to have meaningful blessed families that contribute to strong communities. I really feel for your situation. It must seem awful for me to insensitively tell you to go to a Rav, when you've tried that and hit the wall too many times. You shouldn't have to hear from anyone that your marriage was a mistake, or that it can't work.

Our community must address this issue responsibly, and it breaks my heart that gay people get insensitvely told that there is no place for them in the Torah world.

amother

Fri, Aug 24 2012, 9:42 am

This is the amother with the SSA husband. I "liked" your post. Thank you for understanding my point of view. I often think that until one has a husband, brother or son that is attracted to men, and they are religious Orthodox Jews, it is very difficult to truly understand this struggle. Right now I am anonymous. But I hope that someday this issue will be better addressed in our community and there will be more open-mindedness regarding the options that one has. This is why I support and believe in JONAH, they are the only ones right now that are offering this acceptance. There used to be a time when psychology was a big no-no in the Orthodox religious community. Now you have many many many frum mental health professionals who can successfully jive the world of psychology along with the Torah view. I dream that this will one day, let's hope sooner than later, happen for Jewish SSA men as well. That in the same way that it is now acceptable to write articles in mainstream Orthodox publications such as Mishpacha about issues such as OCD or depression or addictions, it will be just as acceptable to write about this. That the community will open their eyes to this issue and deal with it, not just shove it under the carpet. Until then, I only have Imamother to truly express my feelings. I feel very isolated otherwise. None of my closest friends or family know about my situation because of my unwarranted shame and the fear that they will not fully understand. I hope we can put down those walls soon.