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CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 8:44 pm
Hi ladies, I really need some help here.
DH really wants to make aliyah, I am willing to consider it if we can find the right fit for us in terms of community and schooling for our kids, who are aged 1 - 13.
DH has moved away from the chareidi lifestyle somewhat (we are in the USA right now btw), which is not so easy for me, but we are trying to work together on it.
So, when it comes to aliyah, it goes without saying that he will not be happy with an Israeli chareidi kehillah and education.
I would like to know what exactly is chardal. DH thinks it might be the most suitable for us.
a few questions:
Does chardal believe in gender segregation for kids, schools and youth groups?

Do chardal ladies all dress with sleeves covering elbows and all hair covered? Do they cover hair only with headcoverings other than sheitels or are sheitels allowed?

Do all chardal men and boys wear kippot srugot or do some wear other materials?

Are the mamlachti - dati- torani schools ever chardal, or all they all DL?

In what ways does chardal differ from Dati-leumi (DL)?

Which communities have greater numbers of chardal type people?

Do any of the anglo-style communiteis have large numbers of chardal with chardal shuls?(thinking of anglo-style communities , eg, RBS becasue it would be easier for my older kids to adapt there probably.)


btw, even if some of these questions might sound petty to you, if you know hte answers, please do tell. I am not being petty at all, I am honestly and seriously trying to find out more.

I guess those are my first questions. if you have any knowledge on this, I would really, really appreciate your insights and comments. TIA
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hila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 9:44 pm
I will try and answer some of your questions....

Quote:
Does chardal believe in gender segregation for kids, schools and youth groups?

Do chardal ladies all dress with sleeves covering elbows and all hair covered? Do they cover hair only with headcoverings other than sheitels or are sheitels allowed?

Do all chardal men and boys wear kippot srugot or do some wear other materials?

Are the mamlachti - dati- torani schools ever chardal, or all they all DL?

In what ways does chardal differ from Dati-leumi (DL)?

Which communities have greater numbers of chardal type people?

Do any of the anglo-style communiteis have large numbers of chardal with chardal shuls?(thinking of anglo-style communities , eg, RBS becasue it would be easier for my older kids to adapt there probably.)


This will be generalisations because there are no hard and fast rules.

Youthgroups and schools - pretty much segregated, bus so are a lot of DL . (except Bnei Akiva which is slowly changing to be separate)
All Mamad schools are spearate from kita dalet/hey. A Torani school will probablty be separate from Aleph.

I would say RBS has lots of Chardal, and Har Nof, and also Efrat and Neve Daniel, and Bat Ayin and Jerusalem - probably lots more. But you wont find a uniform frummkeit anywhere. Some wear longer sleeves, some black kippot, some large kippa sruga etc.
Most would go to the army at some point.

As for sheitals - yes it is fine to wear. the non-hareidi wear everything. In my shul on shabbat there are sheitals, scarves, hats, bandannas, with hair out and with no hair showing. I think as the women get older they are more into sheitals.

Efrat is a very mixed, toelrant community. There are all sorts from Chabad thru very MO. (and some chilonim- mostly kids OTD, but a few families too. )
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 9:58 pm
OP here.
Thank you so much Hila, your responses are very helpful. I have noticed htat you always write well thought out posts!

So what exactly defines chardl, what do chardal believe in, what rabbonim do they follow. do they follow the chareidi gedolim in everything or in some htings or not at all? What exactly differentiates them from dati-leumi?

do chardal people liv e in the same neighborhoods as chareidi, go to same shuls or is there total disconnect between the two even in anglo style places like RBS?

also, I have heard of the rapaport school in RBS, is that considered charddal do you know, in what hashkafic ways is it different to the chareidi schools apart from the obviously greater amount fo secular studies?

Thanks again, the more responses the better! I really appreciate it.
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RachelEve14




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 10:17 pm
The differences between chardal and DL are subtle. DL is usually separate from 4th grade, a chardal family would want separate from 1st. Youth groups in teh DL segment can be mixed or together, chardal is totally separate (here we have b'nei akiva separate, but the buildings are right next to each other and there is supposedly a lot of mixing of the kids, where as ariel is totally separate in a separate location for boys & girls). The Torani school my kids go to still has a t-shirt uniform (as opposed to a button down), but they have 3/4 sleeves, skirts must be below the knees even when sitting, and socks must meet teh skirt. DL schools the kids wear t-shirts (short sleeves) and no socks.

I would say in general a chardal family would either have no or limited computer / tv / etc.

There are yishuvim where most of the population is chardal, but I don't know of bigger cities, etc. We have a big mix of people here, but they are all mixed together.

Chardal is still zionistic, will most likely go to the army, but there are some who will learn for a few years before going to the army. Chardal schools for sure have a high level of secular subjects, bagrut, and expectation that the kids are prepared for university if they choose that route.

You are free to PM me if you want more info.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 10:27 pm
Thank you RachelEve14! This is OP.

I have gleaned a lot of interesting information about Maaleh adumim from your posts on the aliyah forum, thanks.

so , are you saying that your child's torani school has stricter rules than the DL schools about dress. is your childs's torani school a big mix of DL and chardal then or is it just chardal? I had assumed that all the mamlachti dati torani schools were DL , not chardal, am I wrong?

do you know why it is called chareidi dati leumi? is it becasue chardal are stricter about certain things like gender segregation, tznius of clothing, no tv? are those three things some of the things that define chardal. I mean, if you were in a chardal only yishuv(do any of those exist?) would you find very very few tvs, no mingling between boys and girls?
sorry, if I am difficult to understand, it is really late here and I should be in bed, shouldn't I?!

when it is called chareidi dati leumi, I am left wondering if there is any connection between chardal and the chareidi world. I also really watn to know which gedolim/rabbanim chardal follow, do they follow chareidi gedolim or not, and also do they have negative atitudes towards chareidi gedolim
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RachelEve14




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 10:41 pm
Yes, there are yishuvim that are more chardal, and I woudl expect you wouldn't find very much tv, mixing, etc. there.

My kids' school is mixed as far as the kids. Some people choose it because of social reason as opposed to hashkafa, but the haskafa of the school is Torani, and the rules are expected to be followed at school and at school functions.

I don't think there is very much connection between chardal and the charadi would, because the army and state of Israel are huge, huge differences. In a chardal school they will have a BBQ for yom hatzmaut, but it will be separate for boys & girls, and they will ask you to bring badatz marshmallows. In the charadi world, yom hatzmaut is a non issue. Chardal has their own rabbiam and leaders. There is really no "American Yeshivish" here, so you have to either move into the chardal world, and deal with the zionism, or the chardi world and deal with the expectations and choices there.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 10:55 pm
thanks again racheleve14, so what exactly does it mean if a school is called torani?

having grown up in the chul chareidi world, I do not know too much about the non chareidi world. does the DL and chardal community have similar infrastructure, gemachim, etc as the chareidim in israel? the reasons I ask are a) my cluelessness and b) here in the USA, I have always heard of the gemachim and chesed networks being manned mainly by chareidi members of hte community, apart form the in-shul chesed committees of the MO shuls of course. (disclaimer - rememebr I am truly not trying to bash or be at all negative, chas veshalom, just trying to learn).
Thanks for your patience and very valuable responss.
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rovacat




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 10:57 pm
Everyones explained it very well. My understanding of chardal is that they keep all halachot- very strictly. Torah learning, kashrut, tzniut are all very important. Theyre just more colorful than chareidi. The men arent in black and white- if anything kahki pants are more their uniform. The women wear all types of head coverings. The men all types of kipas, from black to crocheted ones. They believe in the land of israel- not necessarily in the government, but living here is importnant. All the settlements, hilltops are mostly chardal. They will fight for israel whethee in the army or building their home in territories so aravs wont be there. I find chardal in general to be more accepting than chareidi to different types of people. In jerusalem they are mostly in kiryat moshe, kanfei nisharim and har nof. I think most of yhe shomron inhabitants are also chardal. They have different eabbis than mainstream chareidi but I dont know who thwy are. I hope this helps you.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 11:10 pm
this is op, thanks rovacat, very useful information, much appreciated.
how can I find out more information on communities with sizeable anglo- chardal presence? you mentioned hte kiryat moshe area, do all the chardal people arund there send to a specifically chardal school, or to regualr torani schools (which btw I do not quite understand yet!)so now I know kiryat moshe, ramat bet shemesh. how do I find out which specific neighborhoods, shuls an dschools in RBS are chardal?
it really does sound like we are looking at the right thing BTW< you ladies have been very helpful, keep it coming, thanks!
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 11:11 pm
OP again.
do chardal do filtered internet or none at all (for imamother only of course! Wink )
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 11:14 pm
Chardal is pretty much how other posters have been describing it-but it is very hard to give a llst of "rules" or guidelines that chardal families follow, as nothing is uniform. But generally there are very accurate descriptions here. Charedi follows more of a uniform way of life. And Israeli Charedi is very different than American Charedi or yeshivish. If one decides to be Charedi here, and send their kids to Charedi instituions-they must comply with all the standards. Some of those standards may seem a little harsh even to American very RW yeshivish families.
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Karnash




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 11:19 pm
Chardal - charedi - strict in interpretation of the halacha, leumi - zionistic, support the Medina, serve in the army, sherut leumi, etc. Idealistic - many go into Chinuch as a profession, so that many of the mechanchim and ramim in DL schools are chardal -which has an effect on many of the mamad schools - which some DL parents are happy about, and others are not.
Chardal have a closer connection to the DL world, but by definition, see positive aspects in both worlds.
Charedim do not accept chardal in their schools as they have a big problem with the leumi ideology.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 27 2012, 11:23 pm
amother wrote:
OP again.
do chardal do filtered internet or none at all (for imamother only of course! Wink )


I wouldn't say there is a rule, I'm sure some do and some don't. Currently we do not have a filter, but as soon as my children are old enough to know how to access a computer-whether we let them on it or not (we currently give them extremely minimal supervised computer time-oldest is 5 yo), we will be getting a filter.
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shabri




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:07 am
My brother in Beit Shemesh (not Ramat) I think would identify as Chardal. He davens with a minya 3x a day. My sil covers her hair fully (both sheitel and tichels). They send their kids to Rapaport separate from grade 1. But they fully support the medina. My nephews will go to the army (most likely hesder) and my nieces sheirut liumi

My brother works in a professional job and will send his kids to university. Another difference
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jackiejoel3




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:21 am
Each Chardal community is going to be shaped by the larger community it is a part of. For example the Chardal community in Har Nof is much more to the right then say a chardal community that is in a mostly dati Leumi community. Also schools in every area are different. Don't assume that a Mamad Torani in one area is going to be similar to that in another area. I had a friend who was sending to the mamad in Har Nof and just assumed that it would be similar when she moved and she was in for a rude awakening. Alot of the Chardal families in Har Nof and Kiryat Moshe (KM is more Israeli but has a small anglo population) send to Rapaport which is from what I hear a very well respected school for its academics. As for internet if you do not choose a VERY Israeli Charedi area internet is pretty much the norm in my experience but it is usually heavily filtered and many people do not give there kids any access to the computer or only under direct supervision. ie- sitting with the child.
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fiddle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:41 am
in RBS there is rappaport and moriah. moriah leans more towards the chareidi in chardal while rappaport is leaning more towards the DL in chardal.

the rav- is rav kook. that is who they follow.

ive seen most of the woman over here in RBS who associate with chareidi chardal to not wear wigs - just head wraps and the like. I have seen those affiliated with moriah to dress very chareidi, but with sandals under long skirts and socks as opposed to tights, but im sure there is no rule.
and on the flip side I have seen rappaport parents to look more american with denim short skirts and no socks and more american dressed.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:48 am
Chardal is commonly used to mean "dati leumi, but strict on keeping mitzvot." Like previous posters said - dati leumi but gender segregated from a young age, won't eat rabbinate heksher meat, things like that.

I think that more technically, it's people who believe hareidim are right on some things (in terms of both halacha and hashkafa), and dati leumi are right on others. For example, Rabbi Melamed (the son. maybe the father too, dunno).

When I think "chardal" I think of those in my community who are Zionist - ie believe that aliyah, army service, etc are mitzvot, celebrate yom haatzmaut - but who would send a child to Beit Yaakov or cheider over a (religiously) weak mamlachti-dati school.

Chardal usually have semi-private schools, not mamlachti dati, that differ from mamlachti dati in that they have standards for acceptance. Like, you won't find female teachers at a chardal school who don't cover their hair, and the fathers who come to pick up their kids will all be wearing kippot, things like that.

English speaking Chardal... aside from what previous posters said, maybe Beit El? or Tzfat? Other posters will know better than me on that.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:49 am
I think REAL Chardal generally lean toward chareidim in a lot of areas- very careful with tzniut (but allow long skirts and don't wear sheitels), gender separation, and limited secular studies. They are Kookian religious Zionists, which is how they are distinguished from chareidim. Moriah is a school in RBS that I would say is chardal, and Mevo Choron is a yeshuv that I would describe as Chardal too (they have a dress code, don't allow tvs, etc.)

I do not know many recent American Olim who I would identify as chardal. Most true chardalniks are Israeli or have been here long enough to go through the Israeli system at least in part. There are a lot of Americans here who I would say fit into the DL-Torani, right-wing DL for lack of a better term. I made aliyah a few years ago and I would not feel comfortable in a chardal misgeret the way I described it, but I am comfortable calling myself DL and knowing that my family has certain standards dress and conduct wise that may not be important to another DL family, though I do live in a community that has similar standards so it's not as if we are sticking out.
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rovacat




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:55 am
Correct me if im wrong but im not sure that all chardal still support the government. Since gush katif and all the recent communities that have been destroyed, a lot of them arent on the side of tje governmwnt and would have trouble obeying the army. Those communities are chardal- they support yishuv eretz yisrael, not medinat yisrael.
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Smiling Wife




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 28 2012, 1:56 am
Where is Moriah and what is the boys yeshivas "equivalent" to it? Are there CHardal yeshivos in RBS-A? Or are the yeshivos mainly charedi or american yeshivish? I ve been here for a few months and still have no clue.
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