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What do you do for DD's bat mitzva?
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What do you do for DD's bat mitzva?
DD leins or leads service for women's tefilla group  
 8%  [ 10 ]
DD gives dvar torah at a shul during the service  
 4%  [ 5 ]
DD gives dvar torah after the service at social hall or at home  
 12%  [ 15 ]
Nothing official at the shul, just DH gets an aliya  
 4%  [ 5 ]
We don't do bat mitzva as such  
 69%  [ 81 ]
Total Votes : 116



shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 2:12 am
cm wrote:
gryp wrote:
The dancing and meal is the celebration. We have a festive meal and many times dancing at almost every happy occasion. And divrei torah.

Why the need to find a way to add meaning to an occasion which already has meaning?

It's very nice to volunteer, do chessed, give tzedaka, etc but what does that have to do with a girl turning 12? And where does leining and leading davening come into the picture? Maybe that's what the poster before meant when she said it sounds reform.


What does volunteering and so on have to do with bat mitzvah? As I mentioned earlier, it is an opportunity for a bat mitzvah girl to step up and take her place as an adult in the Jewish community. Becoming bat mitzvah is about both personal mitzvot observance - my dd turned twelve right before a fast day, so she didn't need any projects to reinforce the point - as well as mitzvot bein adam v'chaveiro. Becoming involved at this point is a sort of kick-off event, as well as training for the future. BTW, dd didn't give a speech about her community service work; it's not about bragging or social pressure. She just did it for its own sake, because it was time.

For those who agree that women have a place leining and leading davening within halacha, why not take the first possible opportunity to demonstrate an adult skill? Once again, this is about participating in the community as an adult Jewish woman, taking on both obligations and opportunities to contribute. It seems clearly appropriate to a bat mitzvah celebration to me.


I really don't understand. What does bat mitzva have to do with "taking her place as an adult in the Jewish community"? What mitzva is that? What role does a woman of any age have "as an adult in the Jewish community"? A Jewish woman's glory is in her home. Her mitzvos are in the home. Not in public. This is the day she takes on mitzvos, right? And that includes tznius. And tznius isn't just sleeve and skirt lengths. It is being modest - not being prominent in the community. So what you are saying is to teach her, on her bat mitzva day, to do the exact opposite of her role.

To explain again what I meant in my previous post (although I think gryp explained it for me already) - people dance and are full of joy at a wedding because they are joyful that a Jewish couple is getting married. People are happy at a bat mitzva because the girl is now obligated to keep mitzvos. The joy and celebration are because of the event.

However, if I make a 10th birthday party for my pet Labrador, no one (except me, maybe) is full of joy. They really couldn't care less. Therefore I have to add "meaning" if I am frum and think it is incumbent on me to make everything spiritual. So I organize a learnathon on tzaar baalei chayim to show what a spiritual occasion it is. Or, if I am not into spirituality, I need expensive entertainers or novelties so that everyone has a good time since they have no joy about Rover having a birthday.

So, for those who are excited that a girl will now be obligated to keep mitzvos, the occasion itself is a simcha - the food and music are a celebration of that, not a cause of the simcha; ditto at a wedding - and they don't need to generate some artificial "content".
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Zus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 6:21 am
Shalhevet,
so you're saying that an erev limud is uncalled for?
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merelyme




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 6:24 am
Zus wrote:
Shalhevet,
so you're saying that an erev limud is uncalled for?

Unnecessary for the occasion, not "uncalled for."
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Zus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 6:48 am
Nice way to diss a minhag of a community.
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merelyme




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:14 am
Zus wrote:
Nice way to diss a minhag of a community.


Ooh, one second.
First, I didn't realize it was your community "minhag." I apologize if you felt slighted.
Second, if I say respectfully that something in general is not necessary, that's not "dissing" a minhag - it's stating my opinion.
Please don't make a general discussion into a personal insult when that wasn't the intention at all.


Last edited by merelyme on Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:15 am
When it's a minhag it's a minhag.
When did it start for the bas mitsvos?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:32 am
My moroccan dh has a minhag for the brothers of the girl to read from the Torah for her bat mitzva. Younger brother reads haftara, older brother reads part of the parasha, I forgot which.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:38 am
Many minhagim involve something not necessary for all the klal: be it eating a certain RH simone, doing a kiddush at a girl naming (or a girl naming!), covering the lower leg...
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:48 am
someoneoutthere wrote:
shabbatiscoming wrote:
chanamiriam wrote:
Interesting because high school students must do 40 hours to graduate high school but most do hundreds of hours. And honestly, I don't think anyone feels pressured. People see how much more we accomplish when we have volunteers and they do it joyously. The feeling if satisfaction one gets is amazing.
Not all high schools have chessed hours that are required of the students. I know my high school did not have this.

I think it is a personality thing. I know some people who volunteer a LOT and some other people who never volunteer. Its a personal thing that each person decides if it is for them or not.


This is government mandated community service hours. The jewish schools just direct it to chessed hours.



Yes,y pointbisvthat while it is mandated, there are many who do ten plus times as much. Including bais Yaakov girls. Every single one from our town has gone up alongside the GASP public high school kids to accept their chessed awards with the average kid having something like 600 hours. The requirement is 40.

I can understand the contempt I am hearing about this in your posts. Ever heard of tikkun olam? Who cares why they do it or how much? It makes the world a better place. And if you think only reform people do it, then call me reform dudes, cause I see the difference it makes and I see how much better off our non profits are when everyone helps out for free. And as far as those who are contemptuous of those who do anything more than a private, quiet party to mark a bat mitzvah or volunteering in our communities,, so don't come, or volunteer.. The ones of us who do will do it anyways and your life I'll not be affected in the least if you don't come.

Also, after this thread, the reform have my undying respect and. Admiration for how every kid, boy or girl learns to work in chessed. Regardless of whether they continue to after, they are exposed to the benefits and later, we reap the rewards.

For the record, this was not a requirement for either my bat mitzvah (I was conservative ) or high school. I do it because I want to leave the world a better place.
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 7:51 am
someoneoutthere wrote:
chanamiriam wrote:
My daughter learned to leyn megillat rut and then did it in front of 200 women on shavuot.

I volunteer monthly to cook a complimentary shabbat lunch for our congregation, so we sponsored the tables of the extra guests which were about 130 and then also held a 'tish' for during the time she was reading and then after it was finished.

all in all, I fed about 600 people that day. She is so proud of herself for learning something that no one else in our community knows how to do (both people who knew recently moved away) and interestingly enough, apparently if no man knows how to do it she is actually allowed to do it in mixed company as long as she does it in a tzanua way. kol isha is not an issue if no man knows how to do it. guess we will see what happens next shavuot. actually trying to source the reference to a woman being able to do it if anyone knows.


The halachos about a woman being allowed to read the megilla if no man knows how are regarding megillas esther, and don't refer to trope but to actual reading of the words. Since megillas esther must be read from a klaf written properly (unlike the other megillos which, although many do have a custom to use parchment, can be read straight from the printed book) and you need to be able to read hebrew.
Megillat Rut does not need to be read with a tune, so the absence of a man who knows the tune would not negate the issues of a woman leining in public.


Thanks what is the source? I was looking for this information and would like to know what the original thing was. Obviously someone misquoted it to me.
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Zus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 8:18 am
We've made a seuda when DD was born, not unlike a brit. Why not? We wanted to make a simcha because we were happy.
DH made a siyum massechet, so it was even a seudat mitzva.

When we make our DD's bat mtzvahs, it'll most likely also be a seudat mitzva because it falls together with DS's bar mitzvah.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 8:56 am
why isn't a bas mitzva a seudas mitzva if a bar mitzva is? Women are also obligated in mitzvos, right?
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Gsanmb




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 9:09 am
Dd's bat mitzvah is coming up, iy'H, in about 6 weeks.

We are having a lunch at her school/our shul on a Sunday afternoon. She will give a d'var Torah, her teacher will say something, I will say something, and our Rav will say something. We will eat a nice (pareve/dairy) meal, the girls will do a chesed project (dd picked sewing little teddy bears to then take to the local childrens' hospital for kids there).

Invited are her class, the women in our community, and family and family friends (some men because I come from non-religious family and they don't 'get' not being invited to the first grandchild's bat mitzvah. Shalom bayis is also important, especially for a simcha).

Much to my mom's chagrin, there will be no music/dancing, no place cards, no flower arrangements (dd requested jelly beans in bowls for centerpieces on the paper-cloth-clad tables).

I grew up Reform and had a 'BAT MITZVAH' where I leined the "Torah Portion" and the haftorah, 'led' the service, and gave a speech. We did not have a big party -- my parents sponsored the kiddush. Instead of a big party I requested a trip to Israel, which was the one thing I can point to that literally changed the direction of my life in terms of attachment to Israel and then later on to Torah. So for whatever my REFORM bat mitzvah may have been not in keeping with halacha, etc. -- it led me to where I am today. Which I must say, is probably the single most important thing about becoming bat mitzvah, right? That a girl comes to it and then grows in Torah and begins to understand and taken on her role amongst Am Yisrael.
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merelyme




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 9:41 am
Raisin wrote:
why isn't a bas mitzva a seudas mitzva if a bar mitzva is? Women are also obligated in mitzvos, right?


From short vort here http://www.shortvort.com/bar-m.....-idea

dfine wrote:
In various responsa (Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 1:104, 2:97 and 4:36), Rav Moshe writes that there is no source for a bat mitzvah; boys celebrate their bar mitzvahs for there is a recognisable change when a boy becomes obligated in mitzvos - he can now be called up to the Torah and form part of a minayn. But since there is no recognisable change in her daily life when a woman becomes obligated in mitzvos, there is no real reason to celebrate a bat mitzvah, for the simcha and seudah are dependent on a public, noticeable change of behaviour, not merely a personal recognition that one is obligated in mitzvos. Certainly, there is no Talmudic source which obligates the celebration of a bat mitzvah, which is why a bat mitzvah celebration does not take on the status of a seudas mitzvah (which means that any festive bat mitzvah meal cannot take place in the place where they daven in Shul). Indeed, Rav Moshe writes that the whole idea of celebrating a bat mitzvah came from the reform and conservative movements.
However, Rav Moshe continues that whilst there may be no source for it, it is certainly not prohibited to celebrate a bat mitzvah, though Rav Moshe maintains that it is better not to make a big deal out of it. One can treat it like a birthday celebration with its requisite simcha, which means that it’s ok to make a kiddush in Shul and the bat mitzvah girl can even say a few words at the kiddush (but not on the bimah).
However, given that the whole thing is not obligatory, one has to carefully weigh up whether making such a celebration will cause or encourage any chillul Shabbos, via irreligious relatives driving to Shul, etc. Rav Moshe does point out that if the Shul already has picked up the ‘custom’ to celebrate bat mitzvahs then there’s certainly no need to kick up a fuss and change the Shul’s customs; this will only cause unwanted machlokes.

Rav Ovadiah Yosef, however, disagrees. In his detailed responsa (Yalkut Yosef Sove’a Semachot 2:6, Yabi’a Omer 6:29 and Yechave Da’at 2:29) he first quotes the Ben Ish Chai (Re’eh 17) that though (in his times) there was no widespread custom to celebrate a bat mitzvah, it is certainly appropriate for the girl to act be’simcha on the day of her coming of religious age - she should wear Shabbos clothes, and if possible she should wear new clothes so that she can recite the bracha of shehechiyanu. Indeed, Rav Ovadiah maintains that there is no reason that the gemarra’s source for a bar mitzvah should not apply to women too (he does not hold of the ‘recognisable’ svara advanced by Rav Moshe). And though the Zekan Aharon holds that making a bat mitzvah come under the banner of the prohibition of chukas ha’[gentile] (for in ancient times certain idolaters would make a party for a girl once she reached the age of twelve, for idolatrous purposes), we don’t go with his opinion le’halacha. Thus, Rav Ovadiah maintains that a bat mitzvah is also a se’udas mitzvah, just like a bar mitzvah is.


Please bear in mind when you comment on this that the Rabbanim quoted (Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l, and Rav Ovadia Yosef, shlita) are Gedolei Yisrael.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 10:51 am
Zus wrote:
Nice way to diss a minhag of a community.


Zus, I don't think the way you posted this was fair. You asked if I thought an erev limmud is uncalled for - ready to pounce and say it's your community's minhag.

Firstly, I'm not quite sure how we should define 'minhag'. I imagine this hasn't been going on for the last 100 or 500 years (correct me if I'm wrong). Let's say shul xyz has an annual supper quiz or even an annual trip to daven at the kotel every rosh chodesh Elul, can we call that a minhag? Let's substitute "an annual trip to daven at the kotel every rosh chodesh Elul" for "erev limmud". Let's say I post that we go on an annual trip to daven at the kotel every rosh chodesh Elul, and someone writes that it's unnecessary. And I ask if that means it's uncalled for, and then say they are dissing my community's minhag. Not fair, right. They were only saying no one has to do it and I doubt anyone has heard of it as a minhag (even though I think it's a nice thing to do).
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 11:02 am
chanamiriam wrote:
someoneoutthere wrote:
shabbatiscoming wrote:
chanamiriam wrote:
Interesting because high school students must do 40 hours to graduate high school but most do hundreds of hours. And honestly, I don't think anyone feels pressured. People see how much more we accomplish when we have volunteers and they do it joyously. The feeling if satisfaction one gets is amazing.
Not all high schools have chessed hours that are required of the students. I know my high school did not have this.

I think it is a personality thing. I know some people who volunteer a LOT and some other people who never volunteer. Its a personal thing that each person decides if it is for them or not.


This is government mandated community service hours. The jewish schools just direct it to chessed hours.



Yes,y pointbisvthat while it is mandated, there are many who do ten plus times as much. Including bais Yaakov girls. Every single one from our town has gone up alongside the GASP public high school kids to accept their chessed awards with the average kid having something like 600 hours. The requirement is 40.

I can understand the contempt I am hearing about this in your posts. Ever heard of tikkun olam?


Yes, I've heard of tikkun olam. We talk about it every davenning when we say Aleinu - letaken olam be'malchut Sha-kai. With the kingship of Hashem - that means accepting Hashem as our King which means we are obligated in all His commandments. What has that to do with Reform who reject many of them? A true servant of the King doesn't pick and choose when to obey Him.

Quote:
Who cares why they do it or how much? It makes the world a better place. And if you think only reform people do it, then call me reform dudes, cause I see the difference it makes and I see how much better off our non profits are when everyone helps out for free. And as far as those who are contemptuous of those who do anything more than a private, quiet party to mark a bat mitzvah or volunteering in our communities,, so don't come, or volunteer.. The ones of us who do will do it anyways and your life I'll not be affected in the least if you don't come.

Also, after this thread, the reform have my undying respect and. Admiration for how every kid, boy or girl learns to work in chessed. Regardless of whether they continue to after, they are exposed to the benefits and later, we reap the rewards.


What has this mitzva to do with bat mitzva more than others like keeping Shabbos, davenning, making brochos etc which a girl is obligated to keep?

Do you think orthodox/ chareidi/ DL boys and girls don't do hours of chessed? Do you think they don't help their parents, their siblings, their friends? That they don't help their mothers cook for Shabbos or take their siblings to the park or study for a test with someone weaker than them? That they don't help the neighbour carry her packages, help another boy in yeshiva find a sefer or where to go, call someone to the phone, babysit for a neighbour etc. etc. Or does it have to have a fancy name and be a 'bat mitzva project' to be worth anything in your book?
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Zus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 11:23 am
shalhevet wrote:
Zus wrote:
Nice way to diss a minhag of a community.


Zus, I don't think the way you posted this was fair. You asked if I thought an erev limmud is uncalled for - ready to pounce and say it's your community's minhag.


I don't know how long it's been a minhag for - long enough I guess.
And I did say that it's my family's community's minhag in this thread.
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Zus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 11:26 am
Anyway, my standpoint is this:
In my opinion, girls 'deserve' a party (or whatever) for their bat mitzvah just as much as boys do. Even when most rabbanim hold that it's no reason for a seudat mitzvah.
Why would a coming of age be more important for biys than for girls? Both are reason for celebration IMO (and I've got HaRav Ovadia to back me up Smile ).
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Mrs Bissli




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 6:33 pm
shalhevet wrote:
I really don't understand. What does bat mitzva have to do with "taking her place as an adult in the Jewish community"? What mitzva is that? What role does a woman of any age have "as an adult in the Jewish community"? A Jewish woman's glory is in her home. Her mitzvos are in the home. Not in public. This is the day she takes on mitzvos, right? And that includes tznius. And tznius isn't just sleeve and skirt lengths. It is being modest - not being prominent in the community. So what you are saying is to teach her, on her bat mitzva day, to do the exact opposite of her role.


Women's mitzvot are not confined to her domestic duties. Especially in our day and age. Just look at ideals of Jewish women expressed in Ayshet Chayil and see how much of them are public roles. As for tzniut = not being prominent in the community, I leave it to Ruchel to bring up Rebbetzen Jungreis...
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amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 02 2012, 9:02 pm
shalhevet wrote:
Barbara wrote:
shabbatiscoming wrote:
newmom770 wrote:
Didnt read all replies.

My first thought are: this sounds so reform.

We do nice dinner party for girls classmates at home she says a dvar torah during the meal in front of her family and friends. Sometimes the mother invites her women friends as well. Then there is an activity maybe an art activity or something and usually dancing. Nice and heimish
What sounds so reform? A girl having a bat mitzvah party?


I don't know. A lot of people seem to think that "Reform" means not really paying attention to the deeper meaning of the ritual. That the bar/bat mitzvah isn't much more than an opportunity for a big party. without the need to learn or practice much Judaically. I don't agree; the Reform bnai mitzvah I've attended always include a demonstration of a lot of Jewish learning. But for people who see Reform that way, I suppose that a dinner at home for friends, an art activity and some dancing does sound awfully devoid of religious content, and much like a Reform bat mitzvah party. But she does say that there's a dvar Torah, so I'm not really sure why she would think that the party that she gives sounds "Reform."


When someone has joy because of the actual occasion, there is no need to add 'content' to make it spiritual.

For example, when someone makes a bris for their son, they are joyous that they have a baby and are doing the mitzva of mila. They don't need the father of the baby to read from the Torah that morning to add 'content'. The bris is the content.

Ditto until recently, when people were happy that two Jews were getting married, they didn't need any other content - the joy of setting up a new home bikdusha v'tahara was enough of a reason for celebration. This is still true in many circles. But some circles, who feel the need to add extra 'content' show that the marriage itself is not a big enough source of joy.

If someone has joy that they (or their dd) is obligated to perform mitzvos, that is the joy, that is the content. You don't need to add 'content' or special one-time mitzvos to mark the occasion. The girl is celebrating that from today she will daven and say brochos and dress tzniusly and learn - until she is 120. The whole celebration is a celebration of mitzvos.

If someone doesn't plan on keeping mitzvos, there is no reason for the party. So now we have to look for 'religious content' to justify even having it.


Can you explain what you need a bit further? Because as far as I'm aware, the father of a baby has precedence for an aliya the morning of his son's bris. Does that equal adding content? Likewise, do you have anything against a chosson putting out a kuntres of some Torah that he's written to distribute at his chasunah? Or a bar mitzvah bachur making a siyum? Why are those not "added content" to the joy of the chasunah/ bar mitzvah?

Why is a bas mitzvah celebration that incorporates chessed, a course of learning of some Jewish text, or the fulfillment of a mitzvah in any way more "added content" than the bar mitzvah bachur's siyum? I'm confused.
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