How To Get IV For YK In Spring Valley, NY Neighborhood

mvp

Tue, Sep 25 2012, 11:44 am

happyone wrote:

Mimisinger wrote:

happyone wrote:

ally wrote:

The whole idea of shiurim is that halachikally, it is not really considered eating/drinking because the amounts are so small. If you cannot even do shiurim, it is an obligation to eat and drink.
Inserting IVs is invasive and it is not without risks. It is also, as others said, self inflicting a wound in your body and drawing blood.
I cannot imagine how someone who is trained in both medicine and halachah would support this. It disturbs me that this trend is growing and will soon be considered mainstream.

Obviously there are rabbanim and doctors that have a different take on all of this. I know many people that were told both by their rav and NON-JEWISH or jewish doctor to be on IV fluid instead of fasting.
if your Rav has a different p'sak you follow your own rabbi.

THEN YOU DRINK!

No non-Jewish or REAL Jewish doctor would say to put in an IV rather than drink shiurim. This is crazy folks!

I'm impressed how many women on this site know better than rabbanim and doctors!! Smile

Very sorry for all those that still didn't realize that there are doctors and rabbis out there who are misguided or complete idiots.

BH most rabbis and doctors don't fall into those categories

SplitPea

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 5:29 pm

As someone who just had to both eat and drink shurim this yk I say BRING ON THE IV!!!! I had 4 minutes between drinks and 7 between eating. I felt all I thought about all yk was TIME I could not davin, I could not read and when I tried to rest I woke up dehydrated! I constantly got mixed up "is it time to eat or drink now, was it 2:03 or 2:05? Time is all I thought about. Not trying to get around the Halacha but next year of I Gd forbid can't fast I will be begging for an iv just so I can have a day of davining praying and refleection not looking at the clock!

Isramom8

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 6:45 pm

The idea of IV instead of drinking struck me as really off. Then I described it to my DH, who is a rabbi - and he agreed with me. The halacha talks about normal drinking and eating if necessary - not medical procedures.

The guy in the article himself says that the need is mainly because people have a psychological taboo against breaking their fast even when they should.

Chana Miriam S

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 7:16 pm

I had hand surgery yesterday and was just planning on taking pain pills and enough water to take them, per my rav. Well, surprise, surprise, I got a migraine. Just stam a migraine, not a fasting one and boom I also started throwing up. Dry heaves. Repeatedly. Well, this conversation, if nothing else taught me it was reasonable that if you are throwing up and fasting, it probably means you shouldn't be..I was alone and could not get away from the toilet long enough to ask a rav, never mind getting dressed...well, the best laid plans. My rav will probably agree that I did the right thing. It was that or call an ambulance. I drank clear fluids for the rest of the day (. It's far easier to clean up clear puke) and took some anti emetics. My headache calmed down after I took my Advil for my head but all in all it was a truly horrible day. Pretty sure angels don't get migraines and puke.

Raizle

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 9:02 pm

mvp wrote:

It doesn't matter who does it - we are not allowed to inflict cuts upon our bodies at all. It is not a simple matter to be attached to an IV. Torah never requires us to do beyond what our body is capable of. Holocho is that if it's a danger to fast - you are not allowed to fast. What is the purpose of going around this holocho?
I cannot imagine how anyone can justify such a psak - most robbonim are against doing this.

THAT

I'm not usually one to bash other people's psak but the concept being discussed goes against everything I've ever learnt about Yom Kippur, about preserving life, about sakonos nefoshos, about mitzvos being such that we are meant to LIVE by them!

Raizle

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 9:09 pm

just a thought
maybe this..

Quote:

Rabbis have traditionally allowed exceptions for those who are frail or ill, encouraging people to eat rather than gamble with their health. Some Jews ignore their cautions, which explains why Yom Kippur is one of the busiest days of the year for Hatzolah, the volunteer ambulance corps located in many Jewish communities; too many elderly or sick people try imprudently to fast. Yet many of those who are rigorously Orthodox say they feel guilty for breaking the tribal taboo against eating.

...is the reason some Rabbonim are saying to do IV
maybe it's because they don't trust everyone that has to, to eat if they tell them to eat on yom kippur

imamiri

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 9:38 pm

Raizle wrote:

just a thought
maybe this..

Quote:

...is the reason some Rabbonim are saying to do IV
maybe it's because they don't trust everyone that has to, to eat if they tell them to eat on yom kippur

Why wouldn't they? I mean, people here say the word of the rabbi is the final word. Why would they ignore it for YK?

Inspired

Wed, Sep 26 2012, 11:55 pm

The guy who started the Iv movement who was quoted in the article does not list the rabbis whose haskama he has, nor does he say exactly for whom this situation was approved. I believe there might be individuals whom a rav says should get IV on YK, because of particular circumstances. I do not believe any rav says that IV is halachikly or healthfully better than drinking.
Until I hear that from a rav's mouth I have no obligation to believe it.

I spent one YK on IV fluids when pregnant. I ended up eating in shiurim anyway because I was so dizzy I couldn't see straight and every time I stood up I almost fainted, even getting up verrry sllloowly. The guidelines my rav gave me to eat in shiurim were if I felt I needed to.
I was on IV because I was dehydrated before YK (HG) and I was on IV for 3 days that time because I was so dehydrated it took that long for me to be normally hydrated.

chanamiriam- refuah shelaima!

grace413

Thu, Sep 27 2012, 1:50 am

Isramom8 wrote:

The guy in the article himself says that the need is mainly because people have a psychological taboo against breaking their fast even when they should.

So, in other words, the problem is that people aren't willing to accept a proper psak from their Rav. That's something for people to work on. (yes, I'm well aware that I also have what to work on).

The whole point of observing halacha is accepting that you don't make the final decision on what to do.

Thu, Sep 27 2012, 2:11 am

I'm pregnant, everything normal, no reason that I should have gotten a heter to eat shiurim on Yom Kippur. An hour and a half before the ta'anis ended though, I started to feel pressure on my stomach - it would start, and then stop.... and I was wondering: is this the onset of labor? And should I start eating or drinking now? But there was only an hour left... so I didn't. I waited it out. And baruch Hashem, everything ended up fine. I broke my fast when my husband came home from shul, and the pressures went away.

But I wonder now - should I have been eating shiurim all day? I know that I would have been very hesitant to do it. Yes, giving what happened to me this time, next pregnancy around, b'ezras hashem, there will be room to get that heter. And a rav who would tell me it's assur to eat when I almost went into labor almost 3 months early would be wrong - he would HAVE to give me some heter, since Torah is 'vachai bahem'. BUT I don't know that I would have been comfortable, or if I even would have listened from the start - I have fasted fine in the past - does one fluke mean I should not 'keep' yom kippur?!?! No shul AND no fasting? Then you've got to have a LOT of imagination to keep Yom Kippur 'Yom Kippur'.

So basically, I'm saying that I can definitely understand where someone would come from that they would not want to eat on Y"K, even if a rav would say they should.

Also, that being said, I had a great-aunt who was a very special lady. She was in the hospital recovering from surgery one year Y"K, and she was on IV. Guess what? Her IV fell out right before Y"K, and no one noticed (and she didn't say anything) until after sundown the next day. She did NOT pull it out. Which somehow or other gives me this feeling that IV is not the perfect solution either - it seems like Hashem was saying, you don't need this, fast all the way.

myself

Thu, Sep 27 2012, 2:31 am

kb wrote:

Many people get contractions when dehydrated and once they drink it stops so I assume you'd only get a heter for when the contractions begin rather than from the beginning of the fast. I'm glad you're doing okay.

Thu, Sep 27 2012, 2:41 am

I agree. My point is that I assume at this point a rav would tell me it's the right thing to eat shiurim, I would have that side of me saying but I was fine last time, maybe I'll be fine again, so maybe the rav is wrong or being too cautious...

I'm always quick to say 'if a rav says something you listen, even if it's not easy to accept or you don't understand'. But now I see there really is that other side - and can understand why someone would not want to listen. And that yes, in a repeat situation - that I have to sit down in the middle of mincha shmone esrai because I'm sweating and dizzy, it would still be easier to accept a psak to take iv that to actually (yes, literally: GASP!) eat or drink something on Y"K.

We're brought up so strongly NOT to do certain things from a very young age. To go against that is really unnatural at this point, and would be very difficult. If there's an alternative, I can very easily understand someone opting for it.

Cookies n Cream

Thu, Sep 27 2012, 5:08 am

THE IV locations were in Bobov, Belz and Brizdovitz. I'm assuming that the Dayanim of these places were OK with it, if they allowed this to be administered in their Shuls. (don't give me "they weren't aware"...-it was heavily publicized in all local newspapers.)

This was organized in conjuntion with Hatzala, and another location was in StatCare which is a doctor's office. So againfrom a medical viewpoint it seems that at least some doctors were definitely fine with it.

If this is not your Shita, that's Ok. But, no reason to bash, and say that people are being super frum, and it's more Halachically sound to eat etc....Rabanim and doctors are fools....
Just because I don't follow YOUR Rav, doesn't make mine a "misguided fool or complete idiot."(As someone above wrote.. )