WHAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO NOW?

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 10:48 am

In having a conversation with Person A (a highly esteemed person in my community), I mentioned knowing Person B and wanting to approach this Person B (a Rebbitzen in the community) for a simple favor related to a Mitzvah. Person A, wanting to give me good advice, slipped and said, Don't go anywhere near Person B, they blame you for having been fired from their job five years ago.

As soon as person A said this, I could tell from the tone, that Person A was really regretting it and wished they could take it back. But, it was too late, I heard it in no uncertain terms. Anyone who knows Person A, wouldn't doubt their honesty or reliability.

Here's the story:
I had a daughter going to a certain High School, and she was deciding on which Seminary to go to. She and a group of her friends decided that they don't want to go to Israel, so that left local Seminaries to choose from. One choice was the Seminary of the school where my daughter and her friends were students, and this Teacher (Person B- a Rebbitzen) was an employee- a teacher. My daughter asked the advice of this teacher in her High School, who she and other girls idolized. The teacher told her and her two friends, I think the better Seminary for you three is the OTHER school's seminary. My daughter came home and told me this. I was not the only one that knew this piece of information, there were other students and parents that were aware that a teacher (this Rebbitzen) in this school, was convincing popular girls to go to the other Seminary). I was neutral, I didn't care that much, one way or the other and left it to my daughter.
A few weeks later I got a call from the school's principal saying - I heard that your daughter is going to a different Seminary. It wouldn't bother me if she were going to a Seminary in Israel, but her going to a Seminary, a few blocks away, really shames my Seminary. The other Seminary is larger, and our Seminary is much smaller and needs every girl, especially popular girls like your daughter. Her going to the other Seminary, can cause others to follow, bec. she is a trendsetter type, and can destroy my Seminary. He said- I appeal to you, Please convince your daughter to come to my Seminary and not destroy my Seminary. We love your daughter and we think she loved the School. (This was true). He was begging for my help.

I knew that if it was between my advice and this teacher's advice, mine meant ZERO, as far as her Seminary decision, to my daughter. I told him that I really will try my best, but that I think she was influenced in her decision by a teacher in your school. I felt bad for this Principal. This was about six years ago.

I tried to convince my daughter to please her principal, that it was Hakoras Hatov, but my daughter and friends went to the other Seminary. Since then this Seminary did a spiral downward, as far as numbers. It really went downhill. The Rebbitzen left the school. I had no idea why.

Now I hear that this Rebbitzen (Person B) a big Rebbitzen in the community, told Person A, recently, that she got fired because of me.

1- I didn't call the principal, the principal called me, to beg me to help his Seminary. I was really feeling bad for him. The Seminary was a big part of his Parnassa and his life. I'm sure he called the other parents as well. I was not the only one that was aware of what his teacher was telling his students.

2-Isn't it a Halacha that if you work for s/o you shouldn't cause them harm?

3- Isn't it a Halacha not to bear a grudge and not to speak Lashon Hara. This is a Rebbitzen.

4- Person B blaming me for he getting her fired, means that the Principal blamed me when firing her, which I am shocked about. I tried to help him, as he had asked me to.

I want to ask Mechila, of this Rebbitzen, in any case. How do I go about it? I have called her in the past and she didn't return my call. I never thought into it. Now the picture became crystallized.

WHAT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO NOW?

Ribbie Danzinger

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:04 am

I would completely ignore person A's advice and go ahead to ask person B for the favor as if you didn't know anything. Not doing so may be even be considered accepting Lashon Hara from person B about person A.

Even if she does blame you for losing her job there so long ago, it doesn't mean that she bears a grudge against you.

Judge from person B's reaction to you what you should do next.

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:10 am

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

She doesn't return my calls. I tried last week. I left a message saying I'd very much like to speak to her. I had a few friends call her , to see if she was avoiding me. She either picked up or returned their calls. She has caller ID and has private call block. It is clear that she is avoiding me.

brooklyn

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:18 am

Call from a different phone and see how she reacts to you when she picks up that call.

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:24 am

What a mess. The only thing I can see you did wrong is that you mentioned that a teacher had told your daughter to go to the other sem. OTOH, maybe that wasn't wrong because it was for the toeles of the principal? You need to ask a rav about asking mechila from B, because they would probably realise that A had told you that they were angry with you. So it could be rechilus on A. Shaking

I wouldn't go and ask for a favour from B, because if she is angry at you it could just lead to worse machlokes/ LH/ rechilus etc. But you can't accept what A said as truth; just to have a doubt if there's some reason you need to know it.

I was in a similar position. My child was in a gan and a mother asked me details about the gan for toeles (benefit) since she was thinking of sending her child there the next year. Anyway I told her the advantages and disadvantages and somehow the whole thing got back to the ganenet; I don't know whether through her or she told it to others. The next year she hardly had any registration and in the end closed the gan. Someone told me that she blamed me for it. I asked her for mechila and she said she forgave me, but she has been very cool to me since. She is also someone with lots of yiras shamayim but sometimes when it comes to the crunch ... we certainly can't judge without being in their shoes.

BTW, I have never heard of a halacha that an employee can't say anything against his employer/ place of work. I imagine that the regular halachos of LH apply. If she was doing it for toeles, because she genuinely believed your dd would gain more benefit from being at the other sem, the I don't think it was forbidden.

Coke Slurpee

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:25 am

It could be the right thing to do, would be to write person B a letter(since she is not answering your calls), explaining what happened and asking for mechila. Then even if she doesn't forgive you, you have done your part. She probably has a very dif. idea of what happened back then- as what she knows is only what the principal told her, from his point of view. Not necessarilly what actually happened.

Hatzlocha!

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:27 am

Oh, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the principal told her that you had said that. It could just be that she got fired and your dd said the principal had asked you to send her to his sem and she put 2 and 2 together.

Tefila

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:28 am

Quote:

It could be the right thing to do, would be to write person B a letter(since she is not answering your calls

And thats it. Exclamation

Don't let on you know anything else only when or if she confronts you which will probably happen after she recieves this letter. Then you can tell her everything.Since let sleeping dogs lie Confused

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 11:28 am

brooklyn wrote:

Call from a different phone and see how she reacts to you when she picks up that call.

How do I bring up this topic?
This is such a pillar of the community, she will for sure deny that she ever told anyone that she got fired bec. of me (Lason Hara) or holding a grudge. I'm almost sure she'd say I'm mistaken about the whole thing.

Person A had no way of knowing the story on their own. They had nothing to do with the school or the story. They're not making it up.

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 12:25 pm

How about a letter? I'm not sure what you should write.

red sea

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 12:35 pm

What a mess, doesnt the chofetz chaim heritage foundation have some sort of helpline thing? I think I heard something like that once, I would def ask a rav who specializes in this area the correct way to proceed.

Ribbie Danzinger

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 12:54 pm

Quote:

2-Isn't it a Halacha that if you work for s/o you shouldn't cause them harm?

3- Isn't it a Halacha not to bear a grudge and not to speak Lashon Hara. This is a Rebbitzen.

Obviously, that is not your issue. You are not here to judge her for her deeds. If she feels hurt by something that you did, you must appease her, even if she was wrong in her actions.

Quote:

4- Person B blaming me for getting her fired, means that the Principal blamed me when firing her, which I am shocked about. I tried to help him, as he had asked me to.

The principal did not necessarily tell her anything about why he was firing her. She may have heard rumors from girls or other parents. I wouldn't blame him for this.

Quote:

I want to ask Mechila, of this Rebbitzen, in any case. How do I go about it? I have called her in the past and she didn't return my call. I never thought into it. Now the picture became crystallized.

Quote:

In that case, I would write a letter apologizing without making any judgmental remarks about her actions. Explain that you realize that she is avoiding you and that after thinking things over, you think that she might be broigez with you for that episode (don't mention that person A told you about her attitude!). Explain to her that you had no intention of causing her any harm and that you didn't even mention her name to the principal (if you really didn't). Tell her how much your daughter respected her opinion, and how pleased you are that your dd chose the seminary that she suggested (if you are pleased!). When writing a letter it is much easier to remain cool and collected and I think it would be difficult for her to ignore it. At the end of the letter tell her that you would be very pleased to hear her view, either in the form of a letter or a call.

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 1:58 pm

Dear Rebbitzen___________________

It has occured to me that you might be upset with me over something that happened a number of years ago. I might have caused you great harm and heartache, as a result of something that I said, without meaning to. This took form in a conversation where someone approached me to do him a favor which affected his Parnassa and Mosad, and I simply replied I have no power to do so, because s/o that has a greater power, in this regard, is invloved. I am sincerely asking for Mechila from you.

My daughter has always been very much influenced by you, in anything relating to Hashkafa, ever since meeting you.

Please ignore this letter if I am mistaken. If there is any truth to this, I very much look forward to a reply.

Again, I sincerely ask yor forgiveness for this occurence.

Sincerely,

_______________________

How does this sound?

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 2:58 pm

Accepting person A's report as 'the truth' is not in accordance with hilchos loshon hora. Check the sefer, or ask a rav who is knowledgeable in the subject.
I would totally not act on Reb. A's report, just call Reb. B and ask for the favor you want. I'd not mention the past. She does not answer the phone for you, hm. I'd call from another no. and ask when you can have a few minutes to talk to her. Take your neighbor's phone if you have to.

I find it hard to believe a principal would fire a certain teacher on the basis of your statement alone (that your dd was influenced by a certain teacher in his school). It doesn't sound like you are at fault for Reb. B being fired. Then again, you many wanna check with a competent Torah authority on this.

Hatzlacha.

greenfire

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 4:18 pm

I liked that letter - but, why should she ask mechila? It was not her fault that anything happenned even if Rebtzn thinks it is. She simply decided to send her d to a sem that she thought to be appropriate. If anything mechila should be asked from reb to you for blaming yu all these years

DefyGravity

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 4:28 pm

I think your letter is very nice and not inflammatory at all, however, this section doesn't make much sense:

Quote:

This took form in a conversation where someone approached me to do him a favor which affected his Parnassa and Mosad, and I simply replied I have no power to do so, because s/o that has a greater power, in this regard, is invloved. I am sincerely asking for Mechila from you.

amother

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 5:16 pm

greenfire wrote:

OP here. I love you too. Yes

That's really the way I feel.

I've asked a Rov. My job is to ask Mechila, because she thought/thinks I caused her heartache even though she will never admit to harboring any ill feelings. If I ever get through by phone, I'm almost sure she'll probably say it's imagined......., .........Chas V'Sholom ,.........never.

If I do it by letter, she probably won't reply. But my mission will have been accomplished.

greenfire

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 7:48 pm

amother wrote:

greenfire wrote:

OP here. I love you too. Yes

Thank you OP 8) I feel special
I guess you gotta do what u gots to do
You can't change that type of person so at least now it will be about her and not you

Squash

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 8:09 pm

amother wrote:

3- Isn't it a Halacha not to bear a grudge and not to speak Lashon Hara. This is a Rebbitzen.

Oy, what a mess! Hatzlocha in whatever you end up doing. I really admire you for this.

I just wanted to point out to everyone that although she might be a very special lady, pillar of the community and rebetzin..., you must also realize that she is human, and as such, she also must constantly work on her midos on her level just like the rest of us.

This brings to mind an incident that happened when I was in eleventh grade. We had a teacher who was a really, really, special lady. The type that wouldn't hurt a fly! Whatever she told us we accepted because we knew she was mamash a tzadeikis.

Well, one day she totally insulted a girl in the class in front of everyone. The girl was really embarrassed and started turning colors. I'm sure that the teacher did not do this on purpose, but the girl still was extremely hurt.

When I came home I told my sister that I was so disappointed because now I completely lost respect for that teacher, and she was someone who I had so looked up to.

My sister told me something that always helps me. She explained to me that just because this lady is very special, does not mean that she's a malach (angel). She is still a human being who has a yetzer hora, and she has to work on herself on her level. When I thought of it that way I was able to retain the respect that I had for her.

(Thinking back now I realize that this teacher was dealing with major IF issues and who knows, possibly the treatments, meds or whatever had an affect on her.)