The Constant Guests

amother

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:19 am

I met a woman just before Rosh Hodesh Elul at shul. My husband and her husband know a few people in common, she seemed nice, and we exchanged pleasantries. She and her husband are about 25 years older than DH and myself.

Shortly afterwards, I got an e-mail from her asking if they could come over on Friday night. I was a bit surprised--we haven't been married for so long and I'm new to the community, plus I got the impression that they were going to invite us over. But, I said 'sure' because I spent so many years being a guest at people's homes, that I feel it's my duty to 'repay' the kindness. Ever since that Rosh Hodesh Elul, we have hosted them for Shabbos dinner every week (with the exception of RH and another Shabbos night, when we were out of town).

Here are my two ettiquette questions:
-DH and I are on a tight budget. She won't eat any meat, but will eat fish, but not gefilte fish (which is a heck of a lot cheaper than salmon!). He will eat meat, but nothing with the slightest hint of spiciness. (We use garlic and pepper to flavor our cooking.) I don't want to always have to make separates for her, but don't want to spice her out.
Last time they were here she noticed that there was salmon in our refrigerator for lunch and asked if she could have some. We were already done with the fish course and were on to eating meat, so I had to say "no," which made me really uncomfortable. What should I do?... When we ask them to bring items for the meal (such as a salad, ect) they usually back out or forget.

Also--how do I let them know that inviting themselves for every single Friday night is a problem, without lying and saying we're going out? They seem very sensitive, and I don't want to hurt them--on the other hand, it's expensive and somewhat tiresome to host people every week for dinner. Sometimes I want to have a Shabbos meal in more casual clothes, slouch a little, and then duck off to bed, or invite of my single girlfriends over and have a chatty night with her because DH like to go to bed early.

I live in fear of confrontation and hurting people's feelings...

imaamy

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:27 am

I also avoid confrontation so I know it is hard but these "sensitive" people are using you and aren't good guests. You need to just tell them you'll enjoy seeing them once in a while and would like to share Shabbat at THEIR home too, but being relatively newly married, can't host them every week. Just be friendly but firm. Not sure how much you have in common with such a big age difference anyway. It is too bad they are so picky and like to help themselves. That is probably why they don't have more invites elsewhere!

grace413

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:27 am

These people are taking advantage of you and will continue to do so until you stop them. You were kind and correct to host them, even though it was rude of them to invite themselves.

I also don't like confrontation but sometimes there is no choice. I imagine that it's also difficult as they are older.

Try the old "it's not you, it's me" line. As in "It's been a pleasure hosting you but DH and I have so little time together that we need to have more "just us" time on Shabbat. We'll be happy to host for dinner about every six weeks."

Is there a chance that they don't bring salad or such because their house is not up to your kashrut standards? Even so, there is always a bottle of wine or flowers or packaged cookies. It's really not acceptable to take invitation after invitation without ever bringing anything.

It's a wonderful mida to be concerned about hurting people's feeling. Your feelings are also important.
Hatzlacha.

shoeboxgirly

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:37 am

Huh? What is this?

Some people invite themselves to yours then dictate what you make? In my world that's known as taking the piss. And what on earth are they doing poking around in your fridge?

Next time they ask to come over, say, "I think it is your turn to host". If they host, the next time, say the same...you need to get your money back.

Forget your fears of upsetting them, really, you're already a nice person and if they are how you describe they will be offended if anything happens anyway...that won't be your fault.

moonstone

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:50 am

It's ridiculous enough that they invite themselves over EVERY WEEK and you say yes. But why is a couple who are 25 years older than you making you their only friends? Don't they have any other friends? This is weird and creepy. Put a stop to it now, or you'll have these losers as Shabbat guests forever.

Just reading about them is making me angry. How can people be so completely unaware of their inappropriate behavior? Since they don't seem to have a clue, you'll have to give them one.

shosh

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:51 am

It sounds like this couple know they are on to a good thing. I would suggest that if you don't want to offend them, you fob them off with some excuses:

"Not this week - we want a Friday night in."
"Not this week, we're going away."
"Not this week. My great-auntie Gloria has just flown in from Australia and she's agoraphobic and very shy, so we can't invite you for a few weeks."

After a few of these, hopefully they will get the hint ...

amother

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:56 am

Stop inviting them. My mother used to come to us every Friday night. If we could'Nt host her we would have to give her a detailed reason. We had no privacy. One day we told her we can't do this anymore and she got angry. Now my parents go to strangers. They never host anybody. Not even their own kids and grandchildren. It's a certain stage of life that people get like that. My mother is abusive about the fact that she gets invited by other families now. She calls them adopted children and stuff. And she tells us how well they treat her and how much food they prepare for her etc.
People should be careful before inviting older guests. They use you and then cause shalom bayis issues with their own children. There is a reason why they have no where to go. I beg you to stop. My mother never gave us a bit of privacy when coming to us. If I had to go to Mikva I would have to come up with a lie. She is a difficult women nada narcissist. Yes my mother expects us to cater to all her dietary needs to.

shosh

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 6:03 am

Now I come to think of it, there used to be this woman who would drop in on us every Friday night. I used to be very friendly with her, but her friendship became very intense and strangling. It got to the point where she would actually ask my ex (who used to do the Shabbos cooking) what she wanted to eat next week - and that was always after she'd eaten a whole meal at home! It got stifling - she would never leave us alone. One week, ex and I were both very tired and we decided to get an early night. So we put the kids to bed and ex fell asleep on the sofa. I was literally falling off my feet and was just getting into nightclothes when I hear frantic bangs and shouts at the door. Ex and I both jumped up, wondering what the commotion was, when we discovered it was her. "Your door was locked," she said, "and you weren't answering. So I had to come in and say hello." ....

In her case also, hints really didn't work. In the end, she came to the door one week, and ex told her (in his typical, blunt manner) to go away. It was not nice, not pleasant, but I don't think we'd have ever gotten rid of her. And when, years later, she tried to reestablish the friendship, I fled ...

You really don't want that situation with this lot. So, reading what Merelyme wrote, and thinking back to this, perhaps you should just say politely that in the meantime you don't want to issue any more Friday night invitations.

shalhevet

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 6:24 am

I would definitely stop having them over. There are a few weird things here:
1. It's normal etiquette that an older couple would invite you over first as a young couple - unless there is a reason for them to think you wouldn't trust their kashrut, like you are much frummer than the rest of the community. Then the younger couple might reciprocate.
2. Inviting yourself over, unless it's a situation of need (eg single person on their own, just moved etc.) is weird too.
3. The demands for the menu are way over the top.
4. Once might have been okay, repeat demands are strange.

So I wouldn't invite them once every six weeks. I would just stop it. Just say one of the suggestions here, like that you don't have much time together during the week and have decided not to have guests for the next few weeks. Or just say it doesn't work for you without giving a reason. Whatever you do, don't make an excuse for one week which leaves you open to them just waiting for the next week.

grace413 wrote:

amother wrote:

People should be careful before inviting older guests. They use you and then cause shalom bayis issues with their own children. .

I'm sorry you've had unpleasant experiences with your parents, but it's not fair to extrapolate to general older people.

Exactly. There are young people who are users too and older people who do great chassadim. It's strange to make this into an older/younger guests issue. People can have friends who are 25 years older than them IF it's a healthy relationship.

DrMom

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 6:50 am

I don't think the age difference is so weird (who caes how old they are?), but everything else about your story sure is!

Next time they invite themselves over, decline firmly but politely.

"DH and I decided to spend shabbat on our own this time. Hey, how about next Friday night at your place? I've never had the opportunity to sample your cooking." Assuming they will never invite you, they will probably stop pestering you altogether.

Alternatively, you can invite over another couple an decline the weird couple's "invitation" by saying "I already have guests, thx very much. I'm free next shabbat. How about your place? I'm so tired of hosting all the time."

b from nj

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 9:11 am

I have no patience for users who just take & take & keep on taking. I would put a stop to this ASAP & I wouldn't even offer to have them back in the future. I think you are 'yotzeh' with having them & now the ball is in their court. If they have any middos they will recipricate & invite you over but if not you certainly don't have to bother having them again. Let them find some new friends (aka ppl. to use).

Sorry but life is too short for these kinds of ppl. & I cannot be bothered with ppl. like them.

moonstone

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 10:22 am

Since I'm the one who brought up the age thing, let me explain: of course there's nothing wrong with having older friends. One of my best friends (you knew I was going to say that, didn't you?) is almost 20 years older than me.

But it adds a certain strangeness to an already strange situation. These users are in their 40s or 50s (I assume), they're the ones that have been living in the neighborhood OP moved into- yet they seem to have no social circle and must therefore continually schnorr off brand-new friend OP. I'd think they were awful even if they were younger- but the fact that they're older and seem to have no one else...well, it makes them seem even more creepy. Maybe no one else likes them because they're such users, who knows.

suzyq

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 10:34 am

The next time they ask to come, I would just say, "DH and I want a Friday night to ourselves. I need a break from guests." It doesn't have to be personal, you don't have to hint for an invite to them, just put some boundaries on the situation.

We also have guests on a regular basis (almost every single week) but there are times when I need a break and I'm very clear in saying that to those who ask to come. "NO, we aren't having guests this week." No big deal. My regular guests tell me they think I should do it more often and are happy for me when I do.