The Constant Guests

elf123

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 10:40 am

suzyq wrote:

The next time they ask to come, I would just say, "DH and I want a Friday night to ourselves. I need a break from guests." It doesn't have to be personal, you don't have to hint for an invite to them, just put some boundaries on the situation.

We also have guests on a regular basis (almost every single week) but there are times when I need a break and I'm very clear in saying that to those who ask to come. "NO, we aren't having guests this week." No big deal. My regular guests tell me they think I should do it more often and are happy for me when I do.

I agree that OP needs to ditch these people, but you absolutely can't compare your situation to hers. There is obviously something very wrong with these people; according to her description, their behavior is just....off. Even if you have guests every week, and they are happy when you occasionally decline, I assume that you are not talking about a)having the same people each week, who b) make "demands" on your cooking, and c)invite themselves week after week without even attempting to reciprocate.

suzyq

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 10:55 am

elf123 wrote:

suzyq wrote:

Um, actually, I do have the same people almost every week - we have a group of singles who come to us week after week. Many of them have food issues - whether pickiness, being a vegetarian or having gluten issues. And no, they don't reciprocate. The difference between the OP and myself is that yes, she seems to have been targeted by a couple that is somewhat "off" and not normal. I still say she needs to place boundaries and while they may not be happy about it, unless she starts saying no, they will never stop walking on her.

mvp

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 11:36 am

These people are not a little off - but seriously off. They are taking a free ride at your expense, and I bet they know exactly what they are doing. They see you are too nice to protest. If you don't put a stop to this - they will continue coming. I don't think you should have them over EVER. Make up an excuse for few weeks in a row - and hopefully they will stop asking. If they don't stop asking - keep making up excuses. It's okay if your excuses get ridiculous - these people are ridiculous, and you don't need them as friends.

amother

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 2:25 pm

When my husband and I were newly married, we wanted to do chessed and invited a bunch of emotionally disturbed men to eat at our home. Each one invited himself back repeatedly for many years. I rarely received a gift, even a token gift like a box of candy, from any of them. Many made dietary demands, or went on and on about how much they loved meat. Some had emotional outbursts at my table. One repeatedly pet my daughter's hair for about half an hour while she sat in her high chair. After the Leiby Kletsky incident, I realized that I didn't want these people in my home, and disinvited all of them. I told them that I have too many young children and it's too stressful for me to entertain. This is part of growing up - knowing when you need to take care of yourself and your family first.

MimiMommy

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 3:10 pm

I also hate confrontation. Why don't you email her? Just say "sorry but we can't have you every week." The end. If she pretends not to have gotten the email, say "I wrote in the email that we can't have you every week. I don't know when we'll be available next. Have a good Shabbos." And don't answer the door when they come knocking. Chessed is great, but not when it takes advantage of you. And teaching this couple boundaries might be a chessed for them too.

Peanut2

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 3:32 pm

I cannot believe that no one brought this up, but is it possible that they are hungry?

My first guess is that this is their weekly meal. If that's not the case, and you are absolutely sure it isn't, follow all the other advice (though don't give reasons, just say no.) If you think that they may not have quite enough to eat, and even if they do, speak to someone else about inviting them. Maybe your shul has a hosting committee or chessed committee or you can talk to the rabbi?

Even if they are not hungry, they could just be very lonely, which really is also a hunger of sorts.

This doesn't have to continue to be your problem, and it clearly is a problem. But if they need help it owuld be very kind of you if you could help. Try to think of other resources around you and see if they can get more invites.

black sheep

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 3:56 pm

they can sense that you don't like confrontation and they are using that against you. but you know, it isn't "confrontation" to say no. being kind doesn't mean letting people walk all over you. and if you say no and she puts up a fight in response, well that isn't confrontation either, that is her manipulating you. in fact, she is already manipulating you into hosting every week and catering to all her requests.

spinkles

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 4:13 pm

We have guests with issues regularly. It's important to know their histories and things to look out for, and decide whether you're comfortable having them in your home. So you must call the local rabbis etc. and find out what the story is.

If you check them out and feel comfortable, how about hosting them for Shabbos lunch instead, so you can have your quiet Friday nights?

(Once you become adopted family for these type of people, you become the person they call in the middle of the night after they've tried to commit suicide ch"v (yes, speaking from experience here). So figure out if you can take that on. You have to know yourself and what you want and can handle.)

There are usually other people in the community who are willing to do chesed, so don't feel that they won't have anyone unless you take them in.

Regarding food, it's easy enough to set aside some unspiced food for the husband before you spice the rest of it. And since you can afford salmon for yourself and dh's lunch, would another piece of salmon for the lady (while everyone else has gefilte fish) really make a huge difference? I don't know your budget so I obviously can't say, but in general it's really a nice part of hachnasas orchim to make food your guests like, within reason....

causemommysaid

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 5:14 pm

actually I think that your problem has nothing to do with these people.

You need to grow a backbone lady. no other way to put it.

this most likely spills over into every other aspect of your life and will hinder you from getting a promotion at work, effectively dealing with your childs difficult teacher, telling the mechanic he overcharged you, negotiating a price on a house, and on and on and on.

there are therepists out there who can teach you how to become more assertive.

please get your problem under control before it takes over the rest of your life.

Fox

Fri, Sep 28 2012, 6:35 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

This was my thought, too. I don't necessarily see these folks as cynical "users," but lonely, possibly hungry, socially-inept people.

If they are part of your congregation and/or kehilla, I would approach the rav and ask for a bit of congregational support. Every community has a handful (and sometimes more than a handful!) of folks like this, and a good rav or rebbetzin can find tactful ways to spread the cost and inconvenience around a little.

Likewise, if this couple simply isn't eating regularly at home -- either because of finances or inability to prepare food -- there are resources in most communities to help.

There's nothing wrong with either declining or simply saying you won't be available to host them. As others have suggested, don't make elaborate excuses; just say you're not available.

But focus on doing so in a kind way, not as if you're repelling con men!

Ashrei

Sat, Sep 29 2012, 9:46 pm

OP: make no mistake. You're doing a chessed and getting a mitzvah. don't worry about the 'being taken advantage of" thing, it's all in eye of the beholder. do it with the kevana of hachnassas orchim (be happy while hosting them, inside too!) and you'll get such brachas from this. ESPECIALLY because it's not so outwardly enjoyable. The tough stuff gets the best rewards from shamayim.

Don't worry about them and their motives. Hashem takes care of them, you just care about yourself and handle the situation the way hashem would want.

But your family, shalom bayis, all takes precedence. With a change of attitude, you can probably have it all. But if you feel you need to sacrifice shalom bayis for hachnassos orchim, better to un-invite them.

Here's what I would do to tune it down w/them a little. (also from experience w/pushy guests) Just say, "The next two Friday nights won't work for us, but we look forward to seeing you in 3 weeks. We'll give you a call!" And leave it like that. As other posters suggested, just keep saying the same thing. Answer questions with "I'm sorry, it just won't work," and "It's personal," cut her off, and hang up abruptly if necessary.

I hope I'm not contradicting myself with this paragraph and my little intro: If you're going to host them, do it with joy and kevana. If you feel having them come less is very important to you (make sure it's for the right reasons), then you have to go 100% with that also. Hatzlacha!

the previous amother is pretty amazing. and kudos to the lady who thought they might be hungry, giving them the benefit of the doubt.

amother

Sat, Sep 29 2012, 11:14 pm

OP here --

Thank you for the advice.

About kashrut issues, I let them know that I trust their kashrut even though we are hashkafically different (I cover my hair, she doesn't.. ect), but she once offered to bake something and I readily agreed!

I'm pretty sure that they aren't hungry - she is on disability and he works, and they have told us several times about their trips to Europe, Israel, South America, other places in America, ect. In addition, both sets of their parents live in the same community, and they told us that even though their families offer to help them financially, that they "like to take care of themselves." (Still not sure why they don't eat at their parents homes--both sets of parents are frum, active, and live in easy walking distance). Our community also is known for being a big, charitable, and well-organized community with lots of help for people who need food/rent assistance.

I think that it's a good idea for me to call their local Rav and see what's up--like, if they need help or are lonely. I officially decided that I can't take it anymore--on Friday night they arrived over an hour late, and then insisted on singing 'Shalom Aleichem' and 'Aishet Chayil,' even though we had other guests who were hungry and wanted to eat and my husband said, "Let's make kiddish," and not "Let's sing Shalom Aleichem."

spinkles

Sat, Sep 29 2012, 11:41 pm

Quote:

on Friday night they arrived over an hour late, and then insisted on singing 'Shalom Aleichem' and 'Aishet Chayil,' even though we had other guests who were hungry and wanted to eat and my husband said, "Let's make kiddish," and not "Let's sing Shalom Aleichem."

Yes, this is common with these type of guests. Just go ahead and make kiddush whenever you're ready to. When they eventually show up, bring them bilkelach and a becher and let them do their own thing. Don't get stressed by their behavior--it's not intentionally rude. They're a bit "off" and don't understand certain social norms. And Who made them that way? And why did He make them that way? Maybe partly so we can do chesed, maybe so we learn to give, lishma, maybe a million reasons. They definitely have a lot to teach us. (Not if it's stressful and you feel you can't do it, though. Only if you feel it's doable for you.)

zaq

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 12:56 am

Yes. it's creepy. Incredibly intrusive and inconsiderate, but the fact that this couple is old enough to be your parents makes the whole thing beyond bizarre and approaching the realm of horror-film. No doubt you're a charming and delightful couple anyone would enjoy spending time with, but it's not normal for a middle-aged couple to want to spend that much time with a couple of youngsters to whom they are not related. Heck, normal people would know to leave their own children alone while they're newlyweds, never mind a couple to whom they are not related and whom they met only a few weeks ago.

Put your foot down. These people are using you big time--even people in serious need would be embarrassed to sponge quite that much, and they would know that a newlywed couple needs alone time. Their exploitation of you may soon escalate to other things like--helping them around the house? Driving them places? Lending them money, maybe?

At this point, I wouldn't worry so much about hurting their feelings. Your survival is at stake. Practice saying "NO" in front of the mirror. "No, I'm sorry, we can't." "No, we can't." "No, sorry." "Sorry, no." "No." Do NOT give excuses or explanations, because a clever debater can rebut any excuse or explanation. A plain refusal is like a slick glass wall--there's nothing they can hold on to to use against you. Just stick to your guns and keep saying no as many times as necessary.

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 5:50 am

Ashrei wrote:

I think this is an irresponsible, possibly damaging post. This is unlikely to be hachnasas orchim at all - it sounds like the couple have a home, each other for company, and the means to buy food for Shabbos. If it is a case of her being too (physically or mentally) sick to prepare Shabbos (unlikely) then I stand corrected.

It is not a chessed to enable someone who is taking advantage of you. It is a chessed to do shopping for someone you know who is sick/ bedridden/ has a sick child/ lives 3 miles away from the shop and doesn't have a means of getting there. It is not a chessed to do the neighbour's shopping so that she can lie on the couch and eat bonbons while you shlepp her groceries.

freidasima

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 9:30 am

Oy do I know this type well....professionally that is...so here's the low down in most cases.
Sounds at your first description that they are emotionally problematic, lonely and there is a reason that they are lonely....and it feeds their behavior which feeds their loneliness etc.

I would have said "hungry" or "poor" but you say that they say they are not.
Do not let yourself be taken advantage of, people like that are socially inept, know no boundaries and are socially autistic, there is a term "social autism" which we used to use once for such types on the spectrum.

Calling their Rav is a good idea to find out if there is a story behind it and to get help for them. Please, continue to be machnis orchim but not permanently, on such a basis, at to your own family's detriment. Has nothing to do with "backbone" but how we were all taught, that we are supposed to always suffer here for a good reward in olam habo, a very non Jewish concept that made itself incidulously too comfortable in mainstream Jewish teachings today. Yes yes, lefum tzaro agro as we learned in Pirkei Ovos but still there are limits...you don't have to CHOOSE to suffer, sometimes is happens on its own.

Hatzlocho