My son has gender disorder....

GAMZu

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 4:10 pm

Barbara wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Fox wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

GAMZU how many women do you want? Leave some for someone else.

You know, I'd noticed that she seems to have some fidelity and/or commitment issues. Clarissa, Marina, and now Barbara . . . have I left anyone out?

Do you think it's because she's Mexican, a therapist, a lesbi, or a kitten? I've always said that kittens are bad news when it comes to relationships.

Maybe she played with too many Barbie dolls? IDK. I think the cat thing has something to do with it. I'd ask Dolly to analyze her but then Dolly, who apparently is some sort of winged creature, might get eaten.

I'm still trying to become a dragon. Dragon's are cool! Someone please text me and ask if I'm one so I can transform already!

I'm allergic to cats.

I love dragons. Will you marry me?

I... I'm not used to rejection.

imasinger

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 9:17 pm

Dolly, the views you have expressed on how men and women should dress and act in the world sound as if they were formed in the first half of the twentieth century. So, when you say that you are old, I will take it at face value. Since that would make you a septagenarian or octogenarian, I must treat you with the respect that your years deserve. I apologize for teasing you, and give you due credit for keeping active on a board with us young 'uns in our 50's (and below) who have been posting so argumentatively.

True story -- my mother just told me about a close friend of hers from college, widowed for several years, who at 74 reconnected with an old flame via facebook. Kol hakavod to those who are willing to take on new technology. May I respectfully request that you consider learning about and taking on new views about men and women as well?

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 12:42 am

Hee hee!

Let me just say that I never said the OP's son seemed ill to me. I only reacted to what the OP herself said, and offered ideas about how she could look at that and also work with it.

I ended by mentioning Yosef Ha Tzaddik who is well known to have been esthetic, fond of bright colors and all that in youth, and ended one of the great ones and was always fully a man. I didn't want to get rabbinic but I wanted to cheer up OP with that.

I don't know if this kid has a problem; you are all mentioning how children play with various roles and work things out for themselves and it all comes out right in the end.

OP said she had a "boy family" and then recently had a baby girl. I threw out some ideas about that.

OP has said very little. She made one remark that your varied and positive experience reassured her. Fine.

I found her evidence just a little troubling.

I am NOT predicting dire things for this little boy, not at all.

I said his father should emphasize in the family that he, as much as his older, plural, non-ring-wearing brothers, is just as much a man as anybody there. Now I dare you to find something wrong with that, in between marrying a dragon.

It is a subtle balance, for a mother to be the authority but respect a little boy's boundaries and status as a man. It's love but with a slight distance. Across a slight but real distance.

You guys say your kids are fine; so good; I am not teaching everybody; I merely had some things to contribute to the OP.

Dolly Welsh

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 12:55 am

Hey lawyer: you are hearing more emphasis than I mean.

Of course men aren't women.

As for treating a six year old boy with the kavod due a man, of course you remain his mommy. I am talking about a gentleness, a delicacy.

You should treat your six year old son the way you want others to treat him in the future.

If he is trained up that way, he will expect and insist people treat him respectfully. It will be normal for him. Anything else will be weird and unacceptable to him.

If done right, he won't get big for his britches and think he can boss you around. Obviously. He must listen to and respect his mommy.

There is a mutual manners I am trying to describe.

I didn't start this post. Somebody complained about something.

No, I don't think the OP should be negative or critical to her son; I certainly never said that, chas v'shalom.

You are confusing me with some mean mother in your imagination yelling at a little boy not to pick up something colorful. Not at all.

Knowing sons need to be supported and protected so they can develop well has nothing to do with being mean.

GAMZu

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 8:40 am

Quote:

It is a subtle balance, for a mother to be the authority but respect a little boy's boundaries and status as a man. It's love but with a slight distance. Across a slight but real distance.

Boundaries?? Status?? What kind of boundaries and status do people with pe.nises have over people without them? Especially kids with pe.nises over adults without them?

Quote:

You should treat your six year old son the way you want others to treat him in the future.

If he is trained up that way, he will expect and insist people treat him respectfully. It will be normal for him. Anything else will be weird and unacceptable to him.

"People" here means "people without pe.nises." You advocate raising a sweet and thoughtful child into a sexist man, where he will not accompany his theoretical wife to any place with "cooties" (such as picking up her sheitel if need be) and will DEMAND respect for his genitalia. Anything else will be weird and unacceptable to him.

LOL NOPE.

HindaRochel

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 9:33 am

OK, I'll bite; I'm going section by section:

DW

Quote:

You had a baby girl "at last" so being a girl is a high value thing in your house.

There is no indication of this one way or other. However, being a girl should be a high value thing. So should being a boy; in other words children should be valued regardless of their s-x. There is no indication, in fact quite the opposite, that this behavior began with the birth of his sister. He six, and probably has been speaking since about 2 or 3 years old. That would most likely be BEFORE the baby was born.

Quote:

Don't venerate or over-princess your daughter in his presence. Out of it, sure.

No indication that OP does either. And there is no reason that OP's treatment of her daughter should be less loving when in son's presence. There is no indication that son doesn't receive loving treatment from mom.

Quote:

Have his father spend real, good, quality time with him, just him alone. He needs to feel he is in the boys' club in his house, that he has a solid membership in it, with his father's explicit backing.

We have families in our house, not separate clubs.

Quote:

Watch out that his brothers are not excluding him from the boys' club.

No indication that the other brothers are excluding him.

Quote:

Do NOT ask him to help you with the baby, fetch something for her care from across the room, carry stuff for you, or in any way ask for little helps and favors that you would not ask from the toughest of your other sons, or anybody's sons, or a rabbi. In fact, be extra careful with this one. Those little sweet help requests are not appropriate with boys, especially this one. All flames about this will be ignored. You must treat him like a superior, in one sense. Not like a servant. Your daughter will help you shlep and prep. Not your sons. Repeat, all flames will be ignored.

There is nothing wrong with teaching good parenting to our sons. And my sons aren't my Rabbi. My sons have an obligation to fear and respect me. They are also not more valuable to me than my daughters. I see nothing wrong with asking this type of help from a boy.

Quote:

Do NOT take him, or any son, with you into a wig salon or manicure salon, or other cooties-laden places. I don't care if that creates babysitting problems for you and you look a mess.

In fact, look a mess a little. This remark is just for this household. Being female, in this house, should just be a fact of normal life, DEFINITELY NOT a ticket to stardom, glossy gorgeousness, and high value royal rank.

I never go to beauty parlors. My sons still played with dolls. I never, in fact, did a lot of makeup and "fussing" with clothes or beauty. My sons still played with dolls. So did neighbor kid when they came to our house despite their parents assurance that their children wouldn't because they were all boys. Yeah. Right.

Quote:

Any human being would obviously want whatever is prestigious and high value, the path to royal status.

Girls and women are humans. So your statement makes sense for girls and women as well.

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Particularly if he feels like the low man on totem pole among the males.

No indication that he feels low on the totem pole. We don't even know if he is the youngest or not.

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He must have his rank raised in your house. He needs to be given special attention by your husband, in that way.

His brothers must not make him a little nothing servant boy who shleps the bags. If they do that, and you are petting the girl, well, sure, who wouldn't want to go over to the girls' side. It becomes all that's left for him to do.

No indication that anything you said here occurred.

Quote:

Re read the Joseph story. He ended up a great Tzaddik.

The OP also states that the boy behaves boyish at home, but at school isn't. Perhaps she switched this, but in any case there is no indication that he is all girl. He likes pretty things; this is fine. I don't even know what she means by "girlie things".

b from nj

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 9:58 am

HR, I agree with all that you wrote & I will just add that boys need not be raised to feel like princes who shouldn't lift a finger in order to become real men. My own DH, grew up with 2 sisters & lived next door to a family of 5 female cousins & he played with them ALL the time b/c they were always around & he did not grow up with any gender issues.

In fact, my DH was responsible to do a LOT of chores around his house along with his sisters & you know what Dolly? He just grew up to be a very responsible hard working caring man. Is he Mr. Machismo? Not necessarily but who cares? He is a good solid hard working man BH. I'm afraid that the advice you are trying to give the OP is to turn her son into Mr. Macho Man which isn't necessary. Some men are more sensitive than the 'average' tough guy but they nonetheless turn into excellent husbands & hard-working real men.

Clarissa

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 10:50 am

GAMZu wrote:

Quote:

It is a subtle balance, for a mother to be the authority but respect a little boy's boundaries and status as a man. It's love but with a slight distance. Across a slight but real distance.

Boundaries?? Status?? What kind of boundaries and status do people with pe.nises have over people without them? Especially kids with pe.nises over adults without them?

Quote:

I feel sorry for your sons, if you have any, GAMzu. Every morning I wake up my sons, bow down before their p*nises, and make their toast. It's not easy to bow down before the p*nis of my rather short six-year-old, but I do what I have to do. I used to call him Your Highness but now I call him Your P*nis, a greater term of respect. You should see the look of manly pride on his face when I say, "Your P*nis, would you care for a lollipop?"

Barbara

Fri, Feb 08 2013, 11:06 am

GAMZu wrote:

Quote:

It is a subtle balance, for a mother to be the authority but respect a little boy's boundaries and status as a man. It's love but with a slight distance. Across a slight but real distance.

Boundaries?? Status?? What kind of boundaries and status do people with pe.nises have over people without them? Especially kids with pe.nises over adults without them?

The suggestion that there should be a "distance" between a mother and her very young son is very troubling to me. The further suggestion is that such a "distance" should exist because the mother need to "respect a little boy's ... status of a man" frightens the heck out of me.

Please, please read Real Boys. Read about how boys need love and closeness and affection exactly as much as girls do. Boys may express affection, and the need for affection, differently, but they still need it. And, of course, read about the horrific emotional damage inflicted upon boys whose mother withdraw -- just as Dolly suggests.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Feb 10 2013, 3:44 am

I certainly do not mean a mother should "withdraw" or be chilly to her sons. I said "slight but real distance" - you folks only heard the "distance". You ignored the "slight" part.

And Barbara concedes boys can express their feelings differently. Barbara says boys have a unique style all their own just from being biologically male. Everybody's not the same.

OP describes a six year old, no tiny pre-schooler, who wants to wear her clothes. OK, that's why I offered some insights on what might be going on, and what might help. Yes, to get this particular son a little bit into a more macho-man direction. Not extremely, just a little, to compensate. His own mother feels concern.

You all told her to not worry, but she IS worried, and may still be next week too, no matter what you say. I gave her something to actually use. If she feels like it. Not ONE of you said your sons wanted to wear your clothes.

My long laundry list was only intended as something to pick and choose from, as OP felt inclined.

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I am lending my computer to someone, and will be off line for about a week. See you guys then, after it is returned.