please give me a crash course in hilchos Yoshon

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

Please give me a crash course in hilchos Yoshon

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bigsis144

Sun, Feb 10 2013, 6:51 pm

I want to make homemade MM (because it's cheap, more fun and yummier -- probably cinnamon buns), and I want to have as high a kashrus "baseline" as possible for commonly kept chumros.

Pas yisroel -- not an issue. I keep cholov yisroel, but don't know anything about yoshon -- can anyone tell me where to start? Can I find yoshon flour in a supermarket (Jewish or not)? Any ingredients besides flour that I need to worry about?

MimiMommy

Sun, Feb 10 2013, 7:17 pm

Heimish brands of flour are yoshon (Kemach, Mishpacha). Gold Medal flour from the factory "KC" (it'll say it in the code on bag) is yoshon. Other brands may be yoshon (but probably not this time if year); depends on brand and date on bag. Any other questions?

MimiMommy

Sun, Feb 10 2013, 7:19 pm

The only things that need to be yoshon are flour, barley, oats, other grains I can't think if right now but aren't so commonly used.

bigsis144

Sun, Feb 10 2013, 7:25 pm

Thanks!

goodmorning

Sun, Feb 10 2013, 7:39 pm

Heckers white (not whole wheat) is fine too.
There are some people who are makpid on malt in the flour, though. If you think that your target audience includes them and you want to use Gold Medal or Heckers, look for "best used by" dates before June 26 2014 (for Gold Medal) or June 15 2014 (Heckers).

As a general rule of thumb, if it poses chometz problems on Pesach, it poses potential yoshon problems. That includes all five grains and anything derived thereof. (Depending on the concentration of grain, people may or may not be makpid on it -- e.g. many people hold that the wheat in soy sauce/white vinegar is botul. Ditto to barley malt in many things, including aforementioned flour.)
Kitniyos is fine.

working hard

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 3:37 pm

Hi, I work for the guide to chodosh and Yoshon. I will be happy to help you or anyone out with any Chodosh/Yoshon realted inquires.
As far as flour for your MM, Kemach and Mishpacha is always Yoshon, all others, please feel free to ask: yherman20@gmail.com - that address is for Chodosh/Yoshon inquires only.

wife2

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 5:33 pm

MimiMommy wrote:

where on the bag should it say KC? no other Gold Medal flour is yoshon?

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 5:40 pm

On the date stamped, usually on top. It needs to be that factory to be known winter wheat.

All the local stores I've gotten Gold Medal in have been from that factory, though.

freidasima

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 6:06 pm

Yoshon specialist, can you fill me in on something please. I learned that Yoshon was only really necessary in EY but not really outside, and that's how most people hold because it's not really necessary outside EY, so why are people all of a sudden in the past generation becoming so makpid about it?

shalhevet

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 6:18 pm

freidasima wrote:

I don't remember all the details, but there is a heter not to require yashon outside EY, but that's it - a heter. It's a safek midoraysa and many opinions are/were that it applies in chul too. Presumably in the past the logistics were much more difficult so most people had little choice but to rely on the heter.

BTW, there is a machlokes if it goes by where the grain grew or where you are eating it - so those eating their familiar products from the US in EY have an even bigger safek midoraysa.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 6:24 pm

Sefardim hold that the issur is the same in chul.

MimiMommy

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 7:45 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Sefardim hold that the issur is the same in chul.

Um, as do many Ashkenazim. Myself included.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 8:29 pm

MimiMommy wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Sefardim hold that the issur is the same in chul.

Um, as do many Ashkenazim. Myself included.

Yeah, I know. I was responding the FS, I should have quoted her post. According to sefardim, there is no machlokes- it is required. Sefardim have been makpid about it for centuries.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 8:41 pm

The Rema is unsure why it became the minhag not to. That's not great grounds for assuming it's unnecessary to keep in Chu"L.

We do not hold it's a chumra; we hold it's halacha. The nafka mina being we are makpid 100% without any leniencies whereas chumros there are times not to enforce them.

goodmorning

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 8:47 pm

freidasima wrote:

It is a machloked Tana'im, but the mishna's conclusion is that "chadash assur min haTorah b'chol makom." Heterim (such as a s'fek sfeika as to when the wheat was planted, grain grown by non-Jews, grain grown in countries that are very far from E"Y, relying on the minority Tanaic view) were all explicitly offered due to the sha'as hadchak because people would starve if they were unable to eat chodosh grain.

Now that it is so easy today to be makpid on yoshon, the question should be why one is meikil in it, not why one is makpid.

working hard

Tue, Feb 19 2013, 1:23 am

As far as the obligation to eat Yoshon in America: When Yiddin first came to America there was no way of tracing the wheat and being makpid unless you grew your own. Therefore, the Rabbanim permitted eating what was available.
Rabbi Herman was learning Gemara with Reb Yaakov and they learned about Chodosh/Yoshon. Rabbi Herman asked why don't we keep this in America and he answered 'We Don't?". Rabbi Herman asked if he should be Makpid and was told yes. He obtained some files of flour sources and codes from Bais Shraga, began ordering 50 pound sacks of flour from the mills and baking his own bread. That was the beginning of what became the guide to Chodosh. R' Yaakov Kaminetsky gave Haskomo to the guide but was careful to say that is not a Psak that one must keep Yoshon.
Source: Rabbi Herman

MommyG

Wed, Feb 20 2013, 5:50 am

Hi there
I really appreciate all the posts on this subject as many of my children are makpid yoshon but I have been a hold out. Annoyed etc. It really makes not much sense to me so it is hard to grab the mitzva. I would appreciate it if you could post for me whatever is relevant or where I can find out more about it. This is the first time I have heard it is an actual mitzva not some chumra someone cooked up on a Wed aft.

I would really appreciate an organzied information post on the subject of yoshon so I can overcome my resistance and keep this mitzva. That would mean what I have to do, where I can find info about it, how long or often is it relevant ..... anything else you can think of...... I need to get to the point where I can love this mitzva I have been resisting.

Thank you for the beginning of the crash course and thank you for putting the work in to set me straight.

shalhevet

Wed, Feb 20 2013, 6:05 am

Yoshon (or rather the issur of eating chadash) is a mitzva from the Torah. It is assur to eat grain from the new harvest until the korban ha'omer is brought on the second night of Pesach. Today, when we don't have a beis hamikdash or korban ha'omer, we have to wait until the day is over.

AFAIR, the vast majority opinion is that there is no difference between EY and chul and the issur applies in all places. (Think: a Torah issur like eating pork.) However, there are opinion(s?) that it only applies in EY and as I mentioned before, this opinion was relied upon by most people, since most people could not find non-chadash wheat and it would have caused great hardship. So people became used to the idea and that frum Jews relied on this heter.

I hope others can fill you in with more information, but you can see it is not a chumra at all, but rather it is a kula not to be makpid on it.

goodmorning

Wed, Feb 20 2013, 9:41 am

MommyG, chodosh is defined as any of the five grains (wheat/barley/oats/rye/spelt) that took root after Pesach. Consumption of these grains is forbidden from when until after the next Pesach. They're harvested in the end of the summer (around R"H time), so there's a 6 month window or so when you need to be concerned about buying chodosh. (The alternative to chodosh, yoshon, are grains that took root before Pesach -- in general, all winter crops in the US, plus anything remaining from the previous year's spring crops.)

For the months in which a "chodosh suspicion" is in effect, you need to check all products that you're buying that contain any of these five grains (= anything that would be considered chometz on Pesach) to make sure that they are not from the recent spring crop. As was pointed out earlier on this thread, often you can buy Jewish products that are certified as yoshon. You can buy flour, barley, macaroni, bread crumbs, pie crusts, etc. that are Mishpacha (and Kemach?) brands with a hechsher stating that they're yoshon. For other foods, or if Jewish brands are not available, you'll need to check the "use by" date stamped on the package. The date is some function of the time of manufacturing (depends on the food and company -- some things are good for one year, some for 18 months, some for 2 years, etc.) which, combined with the yoshon dates for that food type (e.g. when the spring oats are in circulation, etc.) will tell you whether that food is safek chadash. In order to do this, you'll need the Guide to Chodosh which working hard works for.

Of course, you can also stock up on a lot of yoshon essentials before the "yoshon season" starts.

Prepared items (bakery, take out) need to have a hechsher for yoshon status. I think this is pretty common at this point in many cities, but check it out.

It's almost Pesach now and then there are no more concerns about chodosh for the next few months. If you want to start doing this, I suggest that you get a copy of the Guide and read the beginning sections over the summer to get a feel for what is involved.

Esther Faser

Wed, Feb 20 2013, 9:50 am

Is it possible for someone to explain in as simple terms as possible exactly what yoshon and Chodesh is? Please explain it from the premise of a person trying to understand it for the very first time.
Much appreciated.

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