crock pot or crack pot

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 10:49 am

So my son wouldn't eat my food friday night because I left the crock pot on. He claims a crock pot is not kosher. Um it's quite off-putting to my sense of religiousness. What's the point if somebody does everything l'kavod shabbos and somebody else behaves like god and claims you're doing it all wrong? There are enough stringencies around. How is this any different than a hot water urn?

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 11:32 am

Of course the crock pot was on. Otherwise it would be unhealthy to eat food from it on Shabbos day.
I'm really confused.
The only halachic issues I can think of
- no "blech" (which many say can be achieved by balls of crumpled foil between the crock and element in a tradtional crockpot)
- controls not taped
- the biggie, and a real concern: the crockpot was taken out, food removed and put back in the crockpot for another round, and not done halachically. Then, if this was the second round of food, he might have some concerns.

It sounds like your son might have "flipped out", or is at a place where you're not. You have to lay down some ground rules as far as respectful communication. Yes, you too should be respectful and open to possibly having to make some changes, but probably even more important he has to communicate respectfully with you. Please urge him to make sure he has a good relationship with a rebbe or mashgiach, preferably one you respect and can speak to also. Hatzlacha!

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 11:33 am

Isramom8 wrote:

I doubt that any of his rebbeim would pasken that he should have refused to eat, even if he personally observes the chumras involved in not using a slow cooker on Shabbos.

ITA he also should not tell his mother her house is not kosher.

My husband refuses to eat at his mother's house and will never come right out and tell her it is not kosher enough for him. It is a delicate balance not to offend his mother.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 11:50 am

PinkFridge wrote:

- no "blech" (which many say can be achieved by balls of crumpled foil between the crock and element in a tradtional crockpot)

this^^^ nonetheless makes no sense because there is a liner which comes out and the crock pot would then be like the blech to hold said liner pot and the electric would then be the 'element' which you cannot see as it's contained in the innards

we were eating contents on friday night and although I usually pull the plug, in this case I didn't because several people backed out of dinner invites and figured the abundance in food would make good for shabbos day as well

merelyme

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 12:14 pm

amother wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

- no "blech" (which many say can be achieved by balls of crumpled foil between the crock and element in a tradtional crockpot)

Actually, there is a halachic difference when the sides go up, enclosing the pot.

amother wrote:

we were eating contents on friday night and although I usually pull the plug, in this case I didn't because several people backed out of dinner invites and figured the abundance in food would make good for shabbos day as well

Please clarify. Do you mean that you usually pull the plug on Friday night, thus being mechallel Shabbos?

causemommysaid

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 12:17 pm

merelyme wrote:

amother wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

- no "blech" (which many say can be achieved by balls of crumpled foil between the crock and element in a tradtional crockpot)

Actually, there is a halachic difference when the sides go up, enclosing the pot.

amother wrote:

Please clarify. Do you mean that you usually pull the plug on Friday night, thus being mechallel Shabbos?

I think she means she pulls it right before shabbos.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 12:26 pm

merelyme wrote:

Actually, there is a halachic difference when the sides go up, enclosing the pot.

really how do you get halachic when they didn't have crock pots back when halacha was created?
also the lip of the liner goes over the pot therefore the pot isn't necessarily enclosed.
and how does this make a difference whether it's a crock pot or a water urn?

merelyme wrote:

Please clarify. Do you mean that you usually pull the plug on Friday night, thus being mechallel Shabbos?

yeah that's it I'm an idiot and being mechallel shabbos shock

it's statements like these that make me wonder Confused

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 12:29 pm

ysmommy wrote:

I think she means she pulls it right before shabbos.

thanks for the vote of logic

yes I pull it before shabbos lichttzin since we're not usually saving the food for the next day and I honestly forgot about his machmir shtusim and might have pulled the plug for him and kept the leftovers in the fridge for after shabbos

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 12:30 pm

You don't need a blech unless either a) the cholent was not fully cooked before Shabbos or b) you plan on doing "chazarah" (removing the pot, taking some of the contents out, and replacing the pot). I'm guessing from your post that it was the latter?

If you would remove hot water from the urn and then put it back in the urn on Shabbos, you would need a blech. Ditto if the water wasn't boiled before Shabbos. But those are somewhat unlikely scenarios; hence, nobody has blechs on their water urns.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 12:53 pm

From what I've learned you can take some of the food out barring that you don't put the lid down and 1 hand remains on the pot. Be it on a blech or a crock pot.

As I said earlier it's not something we usually do. The food was completely cooked as we wanted to eat it for Friday night's seuda. The normal compromise was not leaving it on over shabbos. But I forgot his issues and had an abundance and enough for the day meal and he forgot to remind me. He would have been fine if I put rocks in between. And why is it that last year he ate from a crock pot and suddenly the halacha changes?

OOTBubby

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 1:04 pm

If this were my son, I would find out exactly how he holds it can be used and would do it his way when he is home in the future.

I have a large family (12 married children and close to 4 dz. granchildren BE"H) and my policy has always been to fully accommodate any of their chumras when they are present. I changed somethings in the house completely, and some for when they're present.

I want all of my family to be comfortable eating here and am willing to do what is necessary for that to happen.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 1:21 pm

amother wrote:

There are a number of rules for permitting chazara - see e.g. http://www.chabad.org/library/.....h.htm

If you'll note, #3 is that the flame needs to be covered -- I.e., a blech. It's easy enough to make a blech for a crockpot by putting a piece of heavy-duty foil between the outside and the inner liner, hanging over to cover the temperature controls. It's not a bad idea to get into the habit of doing it every week, just in case you'll want it.

(The rocks or balls of foil are usually placed inside for another reason -- some say that a crockpot liner that is enclosed on all sides by heating elements violates the prohibition against hatmana [insulating] and the rocks raise it so that is no longer the case.)

Isramom8

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 2:12 pm

Some historical background: Slow cookers (Crock Pot is a name brand) became available in the early Eighties, as far as I remember, mainly in the US. It was a great Shabbos solution. Then in the mid Nineties, just before he was niftar, the gadol Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach seemed to issue a somewhat confusing halachic ruling against slow cookers.

Many people decided to honor Rav Auerbach zt"l by abiding by his final (if somewhat confusing) ruling, either by not using slow cookers, or by doing things like raising the bottom with aluminum foil balls and/or unscrewing or taping the controls, or at least turning the pot around so that the controls don't face the people.

It seems completely farfetched to say that a Crock Pot is "not kosher". A bachur who says that he cannot eat from it is not properly learning the sugya.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 2:17 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Isramom8, it seems that OP removed the liner from the crockpot and replaced it, although the crockpot did not have a blech or covered controls.
I don't know how far-fetched it is to day that he couldn't eat from it.

Isramom8

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 2:50 pm

I'm not seeing the part where the OP replaced the liner into the Crock Pot and then attempted to serve her son afterwards.

In any case, if the food was still hot, and fully cooked, you still don't get to a safek of bishul beshogeg. You know that Sefardim place cold solid food on the blech or plata lechatchila, right? We don't not eat because someone observed a different minhag. (I don't know if OP's food was solid, liquid or of an indeterminate consistency).

From the other point of view, I'm all for accommodating kids' and guests' minhag and chumra wishes. Just because something was okay with your son last year doesn't mean he doesn't understand the matter differently this year.

chocolate moose

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 3:18 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

You know that Sefardim place cold solid food on the blech or plata lechatchila, right? We don't not eat because someone observed a different minhag.

I don't think all sefardim do that because I've heard a story told about the Baba Sali who refused to eat from a pot that had been put on the blech on shabbos.

I've also been told by a friend that the rov told her not to eat at a home where they put food on the blech on shabbos.

amother

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 3:35 pm

Quote:

In any case, if the food was still hot, and fully cooked, you still don't get to a safek of bishul beshogeg. You know that Sefardim place cold solid food on the blech or plata lechatchila, right? We don't not eat because someone observed a different minhag. (I don't know if OP's food was solid, liquid or of an indeterminate consistency.)

No, you get to the issur d'rabanan of "mechazei kimevashel" bishogeg.

And I don't know why Sefardic practices are relevant here; Ashkenazim DO "not eat because someone observed a different minhag." What would you do if you were invited to a Sefardic home on Pesach and were served rice/legumes? Would you eat them because it's just a difference of minhagim?

In general, I think that the word "minhag" may be somewhat overused -- it spans the spectrum from mitzvah tantz to cheesecake on Shavuos to a genuine machlokes haposkim that is binding on all Ashkenazim/Sefardim. One can decide to/not to have a mitzvah tantz for the sake of shalom bayis. But a Sefardi can not start to follow the Rema likulah (e.g. eat chadash bizman hazeh) and Ashkenazim can not choose to follow the Beis Yosef in areas on which the Rema disagrees, just for the sake of shalom bayis. It's halacha, not some wishy-washy "someone does this, so it must be okay."